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Scotland: The Next Step

Misread you then Henry.

I have to say I am dubious to the idea that Scotland have a strong natural style at the moment. The days of the quick-rucking border reivers seems to be over. That said, if I was picking a Scotland team, I'd definitely have one of Barclay or Rennie at 7 rather than Kelly Brown...

... but I feel big guys have been a relative strength of theirs recently. Guys like Jim Hamilton, Dave Denton, Al Kellock, Ross Ford... recent Scots packs have been pretty big. You don't ask Jim Hamilton to try and run people into the ground, right?

I agree they don't, at the moment.

But I don't see it as a huge leap for them to move back to that quick low borders style.

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm saying about a natural style of game.

In not saying national teams can only pay one way and one way for ever. I'm saying each has certain attributes, both physically and due to their rugby education that lend itself to similar styles of play throughout the decades, and that the core of a teams game plan should probably be based around those rather than trying to play like someone else... Which I think Scotland have been guilty of.

NZ, Aussies, SA, England et al haven't changed THAT much over the years.
 
Recently when talking about Japans success Eddie Jones talked about going back to a more traditional Japanese style of rugby. Genetics and culture play a big part in it. SA like to be physical and are proud of that. They like to dominate teams that way. The Pacific islanders like putting in big hits especially Samoa and Tonga. The Fijians are slightly different and naturally gifted runners. European teams like set pieces a lot and are usually good at them. The weather in Europe plays a big part in that. Australia traditionally have a good running game while New Zealand are the best all rounders. Argentina have traditional played a spoiling game with good set pieces.

Wales traditionally played running rugby but thats changed now to a power based game. Ireland are playing a low error based game under Schmidt, Italy are throwing the ball around more, England are looking to dominate up front and do the basics well. France are France. :p

Peat said:
p.s. Right now the Irish don't have any particular national style other than a tendency towards Garryowens and big wingers who are strong in the air; I suppose you could make something out of the trend of converting 8/6s to 7s and jinky centres too. The dissonance between how Munster traditionally like to play and Leinster traditionally like to play is very noted, although that's breaking down. However, the systematic appointment of NZ coaches across the top echelon of Irish rugby could be construed as the IRFU trying to impose a national style from the top down.


Thats also part of the reason they brought in David Nucifora.
 
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pfff, you're just biased coz I'm French. You're just trying to imprison France in a particular scheme when you know damn well we're Chaos itself, in fact if the very entity of Chaos saw France play, it would get a heart attack and implode into itself for all time. There are no limits to our immeasurable remoteness, and your attempts to hurt my feelings saying the contrary have no effect on me !

I just went to get my train at Paris Nord and there was this totally smoking girl on the platform. Tight jeans. Stacked. Playful look on her face.

Then her boyfriend walked up. Shaved head, except for the pube like thatch on top. You know the sort track suit bottoms and fake designer man purse. The Marseille look.

Spitting every other step.

That's how I imagine you.
 
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Recently when talking about Japans success Eddie Jones talked about going back to a more traditional Japanese style of rugby. Genetics and culture play a big part in it. SA like to be physical and are proud of that. They like to dominate teams that way. The Pacific islanders like putting in big hits especially Samoa and Tonga. The Fijians are slightly different and naturally gifted runners. European teams like set pieces a lot and are usually good at them. The weather in Europe plays a big part in that. Australia traditionally have a good running game while New Zealand are the best all rounders. Argentina have traditional played a spoiling game with good set pieces.

Wales traditionally played running rugby but thats changed now to a power based game. Ireland are playing a low error based game under Schmidt, Italy are throwing the ball around more, England are looking to dominate up front and do the basics well. France are France. :p

The funny thing about that statement is that in actual fact they are playing a mile off the traditional Japanese style of rugby that we saw back in the old days, and with good reason too as it was completely flawed and unworkable in the professional era.
 
The funny thing about that statement is that in actual fact they are playing a mile off the traditional Japanese style of rugby that we saw back in the old days, and with good reason too as it was completely flawed and unworkable in the professional era.

No they are not.

They are playing fast open fluid highly skilful rugby with little interlinking.

They've pretty much abandoned the punch groups and play very wide off set piece using their backs.
 
I just went to get my train at Paris Nord and there was this totally smoking girl on the platform. Tight jeans. Stacked. Playful look on her face.

Then her boyfriend walked up. Shaved head, except for the pube like thatch on top. You know the sort track suit bottoms and fake designer man purse. The Marseille look.

Spitting every other step.

That's how I imagine you.

oh, right, very good. Try making this personal now. Right, very smart. btw I'm actually a crazy-good-looking stallion with a regular sized penis but capable of outstanding prowess. When I become the next Nacho Vidal I want my stage name to be 'Apollo' because it fits my general perfection.

 
The idea that nations don't develop styles of play is ludicrous. If a certain way of playing is held up as the ideal and gold standard, it will then be taught across schools, it will be emulated by children, it will perpetuate - particularly when it is associated with genetic trends to athleticism.

Now, not every nation develops them, and they don't always stay the same, particularly with the onset of the professional game, but to say they don't exist... I mean, sorry, what?

Feic - I'm not saying they could win the 6N tomorrow or that they don't have deep seated issues that are turning into real issues for the national coach; the point was that I feel there's merit to the argument that they've been underperforming compared to where they could be and have not been best coached, and that concentrating the argument on the talent pool is erroneous when we've watched various other teams either out or under-perform what people reckon to be the natural level of the players involved.

p.s. Right now the Irish don't have any particular national style other than a tendency towards Garryowens and big wingers who are strong in the air; I suppose you could make something out of the trend of converting 8/6s to 7s and jinky centres too. The dissonance between how Munster traditionally like to play and Leinster traditionally like to play is very noted, although that's breaking down. However, the systematic appointment of NZ coaches across the top echelon of Irish rugby could be construed as the IRFU trying to impose a national style from the top down.

I dunno, I think if we're judging Scottish rugby as a whole then it's useful to compare the marquee players in Scottish rugby to those of the nations around them. Yes, players' form will fluctuate and teams can play to less or more than the sum of their parts, but these are transient factors that are difficult to factor into a solid analysis of Scottish rugby.

I was responding to a comment by ImScotty saying that the talent exists within the Scottish pro game to be competitive within the 6 nations. For me competitiveness means that you stand at least an outside chance of winning the competition. Regardless of coach, I don't think the talent is there to do that. Maybe a direct comparison between teams wasn't the best way to go about expressing this, but I stand by the statement.
 
oh, right, very good. Try making this personal now. Right, very smart. btw I'm actually a crazy-good-looking stallion with a regular sized penis but capable of outstanding prowess. When I become the next Nacho Vidal I want my stage name to be 'Apollo' because it fits my general perfection.


Lol @ the Vidal reference.
 
oh, right, very good. Try making this personal now. Right, very smart. btw I'm actually a crazy-good-looking stallion with a regular sized penis but capable of outstanding prowess. When I become the next Nacho Vidal I want my stage name to be 'Apollo' because it fits my general perfection.


Hey chin up, he's saying he sees you as having a stunning girlfriend ;)
 
Lol @ the Vidal reference.

mehmehmeh, you dirty little man, I knew you'd get that...you see, EVERYTHING in my posts is accurately calculated, as everyone can clearly observe..

Hey chin up, he's saying he sees you as having a stunning girlfriend ;)

he called me a 'racaille' !! Surely you know what that means, GN10 ? And I'm pretending and all, but I'll get you back real hard for this one. Ooh just you wait...
 
@GN10 - Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, to bring it back to the original point, you'd expect kilted Kiwis to catch onto the traditional borders rucking game very quickly so I don't think it would weaken them in that regard.

@Feic - Ah so. If we use that barometer of competitive, then no, its not happening soon. A team that is floundering for what to do 1-3 and 10-13 due to lack of talent is not making that happen. If we talk about winning 2-3 games most Championships and not being an easy fixture, I feel that could be reasonably close although the personnel problem is still a big one.

However, I don't hold with concentrating on the marquee players as a mark of talent levels - obviously its one, I just don't think its the most important one.
 
I made the mistake of Googling images of Nacho Vidal with my wife sitting here next to me...

Thanks for that, Big E..

On the topic of characteristics of particular national sides, while I do agree most teams do have their own quirks or particular areas of strength that they tend to get associated with I think there is a trap there coaches and players must try to avoid in getting too narrowly focussed. It is a trap that SA fell into under PdV leading up to 2011. I mean, sure, put emphasis on your strengths and attempt to impose the type of game you want to play on your opposition but don't lose sight of the fact that having different ways of winning will probably mean you're going to win more often. Being able to mix it up means your opposition won't be able to focus purely and simply on stopping your game A which just means your natural game will be so much more effective.
 
I made the mistake of Googling images of Nacho Vidal with my wife sitting here next to me...

Thanks for that, Big E..

YUUUSSSSS !!! My plan's worked so marvelously...so from now on she probably will be thinking every time you say "honey, I'll do a bit of Rugby forum now okay ?" that really you're going for a monster internet pron whackoff party. But please uhm stormer, can you try to stay on topic a little bit here, you're derailing the thread like crazy...honestly it's a bit annoying...to be honest.
 
No they are not.

They are playing fast open fluid highly skilful rugby with little interlinking.

They've pretty much abandoned the punch groups and play very wide off set piece using their backs.

This is incorrect, but then again I doubt you've actually watched them play much either. They are a very structured side, which cannot be said of the way Japan played under Japanese coaches back in the day.

I assume by "punch groups" you mean the row of forwards by the ruck as ball carrying options? You really haven't watched them if you think they have abandoned their big ball carriers and are just spreading it wide each time.
 
YUUUSSSSS !!! My plan's worked so marvelously...so from now on she probably will be thinking every time you say "honey, I'll do a bit of Rugby forum now okay ?" that really you're going for a monster internet pron whackoff party. But please uhm stormer, can you try to stay on topic a little bit here, you're derailing the thread like crazy...honestly it's a bit annoying...to be honest.

It really was a masterful ploy; you either catch them out or paint them.. purple?
 
This is incorrect, but then again I doubt you've actually watched them play much either. They are a very structured side, which cannot be said of the way Japan played under Japanese coaches back in the day.

I assume by "punch groups" you mean the row of forwards by the ruck as ball carrying options? You really haven't watched them if you think they have abandoned their big ball carriers and are just spreading it wide each time.

Funnily enough I've just done a video analysis of their attack over the course of their June internationals. It should be online shortly with an article.

They play with a lot of structure, I don't claim otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact they play in the 13 channel and seldom play with punch groups unless left with little other option.

Quick ball sees the ball in the wide channels with little midfield carrying (punch groups).
 
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Funnily enough I've just done a video analysis of their attack over the course of their June internationals. It should be online shortly with an article.

They play with a lot of structure, I don't claim otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact they play in the 13 channel and seldom play with punch groups unless left with little other option.

Quick ball sees the ball in the wide channels with little midfield carrying (punch groups).

Right first of all, "they play with a lot of structure", thus fundamentally removing themselves from resembling the "traditional Japanese style of play". Second of all, wehther by "little midfield carrying" you mean the individual midfielders themselves or the team as a whole trucking it up in midfield? Fact is they revolve a lot more around controlling the pace than they do around width, it's not as if they are chucking it out to the wingers and hoping.

Back on the topic of teams stylistically. I still don't get where your idea of teams having to conform to "indigenous" styles comes from. With different coaches we have seen teams tactically be remarkably different. Wales under various different coaches would be a good example, compare Gyppo era Wales to Gatland era Wales. The best coaches though will, as Feicarsinn said, be able to tailor gameplans towards the players they have at their disposal.
 
Right first of all, "they play with a lot of structure", thus fundamentally removing themselves from resembling the "traditional Japanese style of play".

Second of all, wehther by "little midfield carrying" you mean the individual midfielders themselves or the team as a whole trucking it up in midfield? Fact is they revolve a lot more around controlling the pace than they do around width, it's not as if they are chucking it out to the wingers and hoping.

Just because they have structure doesn't mean they don't play to their traditional strengths which was techincally adept backs with a lot of pace having a go form pretty much everywhere. For example Tatekawa doesn't kick the ball defensively once in all three test matches.

They control the pace of the game by doing exactly that, they sling it wide and try and create 1 on 1's or 2 vs 1 in the back line and move opposition teams defensive alignment around at pace - but they don't do that through midfield punch groups.

They are quite happy surrendering possession if it is the outcome of their outside backs getting a chance against their opposition wingers.

So actually they do sling it wide and hope to get a scoring chance, their desire to keep it alive sees them play high risk rugby that brings great trys but also frequently sees them shipping points.

That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Back on the topic of teams stylistically. I still don't get where your idea of teams having to conform to "indigenous" styles comes from. With different coaches we have seen teams tactically be remarkably different. Wales under various different coaches would be a good example, compare Gyppo era Wales to Gatland era Wales. The best coaches though will, as Feicarsinn said, be able to tailor gameplans towards the players they have at their disposal.

A: I never said a team had to conform to an indigenous style. I sid most teams do, and that scotland have suffered from abandoning theirs.

B: Of course tactics change but a teams style of play will generally revolve around traditional strengths - Indigenous = traditional or the natural/native game played.

England 2002, best attacking side in the world at the time, but still steeped in their traditional strengths.

People seem to think that Wales were 15 slight ducking and weaving players all through the 70's, when in fact the bulk of the team was solid and they had a couple of flashy players at 9&10 and in the back 3, much like today.

The traditional welsh style of play is very much physical confrontation. Get on the front foot and then keep that foot on the throat - that's why they've always struggled against SA and NZ as they had packs that could stand up and backs as physical as the welsh. When they lost that physicality (late 80's early 90's) they struggled against teams like Samoa and Fiji who could match them physically.
 
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Eddie Jones - the Japanese coach - said himself that they've gone back to a traditional type of gameplan. He should know.
 
Eddie Jones - the Japanese coach - said himself that they've gone back to a traditional type of gameplan. He should know.

how would he know? he's only been coaching there on and off, since 1994 including two stints with the national side. Surely some random guy on the internet knows more than that joker? :)
 
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