Scotland How do we turn this around ?

[iINDOMINUSxx]

of course it will first steps have been token

 

[Dougydeluxe]

Personally Scotland need to do two things moving forward for the next 2-4 years.

1: Focus on getting better grassroots, They need to get more High schools (middle school) involved in Rugby. Northern Ireland has a tournament every year that ends with the championship game right around St. Pats day. They get over 10,00 people out to the final game. This will help build a far better youth based that is driven by the love of playing with your friends and School. They can then use this pride and get them switching over to clubs after school.

2: Vern Cotter needs to have free reign and really build a far better winning attitude from a team. They need to focus on the Lineout and Defense. Scrums just need to be average as we do not have the skill to play in our own 22. So playing a kicking game with Lineouts and then getting are improving backline going is our best bet.

After 2-4 years:

The Pro 12 is slowly falling apart. Yes we are getting the HCup again next year and it sounds like this issue is behind us. But we have seen Italy pull out from Pro 12, and wales would like to switch to EPL. We can not have Scotland looking to invest into a league that may turn into Ireland vs. Scotland. That being said, I do bet that they have better funds to support 1 more Pro 12 team then to try and create something like the ITM Cup (new Zealand) as a domestic league.

We do need some sort of domestic league or more Pro 12 teams, but I feel that now is not the time to act as we are unclear of the outcomes of many leagues.

 

[Conal]

Personally Scotland need to do two things moving forward for the next 2-4 years.

1: Focus on getting better grassroots, They need to get more High schools (middle school) involved in Rugby. Northern Ireland has a tournament every year that ends with the championship game right around St. Pats day. They get over 10,00 people out to the final game. This will help build a far better youth based that is driven by the love of playing with your friends and School. They can then use this pride and get them switching over to clubs after school.

its on paddy's day and is televised
aye but the schools cup is the second oldest trophy in rugby i think

but the atmosphere it has is fantastic but its hard to build tradition etc

does scotland not have a version of a schools cup?


if not make one through money for advertising at it
get bbc scotland (alba?) to do some updates for it
local tv the final
do the final at scotsun or muarry field
could the SRU help fund getting kids to the final?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

its on paddy's day and is televised
aye but the schools cup is the second oldest trophy in rugby i think

but the atmosphere it has is fantastic but its hard to build tradition etc

does scotland not have a version of a schools cup?


if not make one through money for advertising at it
get bbc scotland (alba?) to do some updates for it
local tv the final
do the final at scotsun or muarry field
could the SRU help fund getting kids to the final?

yes we have an under 18 and under 16 tournament cup but they're never televised

 

[Amiga500]

Ive said this before and been shouted down for it but instead of investing money into souless franchies like you have now why not make the top 8 clubs semi pro with youth stuctures etc?

Because the standard isn't high enough.

It will give a better oppotunity to more players who can play at least part time and if they are any good they could get full time contracts in England/Wales/Ireland/France because thats the big thing for me.

Which leaves the Scottish coaches and the Scottish game in general at the mercy of those clubs for training camps etc.

going down the semi pro route will improve the club game in the borders and morehe players could move on to full time rugby

It probably would improve the club game, but I don't think that would translate into national success.

I suppose it depends on what you see as the end-goal - a stronger club game in Scotland or a stronger national side. The two don't always align.

 

[Peat]

After 2-4 years:

The Pro 12 is slowly falling apart. Yes we are getting the HCup again next year and it sounds like this issue is behind us. But we have seen Italy pull out from Pro 12, and wales would like to switch to EPL. We can not have Scotland looking to invest into a league that may turn into Ireland vs. Scotland. That being said, I do bet that they have better funds to support 1 more Pro 12 team then to try and create something like the ITM Cup (new Zealand) as a domestic league.

We do need some sort of domestic league or more Pro 12 teams, but I feel that now is not the time to act as we are unclear of the outcomes of many leagues.

No we haven't. Nothing has been settled there but last I read the Italians were considering the fine print on their new contract to stay.

And the Welsh might like to leave, but they can't unless the English say yes, and the English would rather have Europe. I may be wrong, but I think that when the dust has settled at the end of the season, the Pro 12 will look pretty secure. None of the four countries involved have any particular hope of getting a better offer for playing an elite standard of rugby at home anytime soon and that, I think, will keep it together.

 

[McTallshort]

Because the standard isn't high enough.




Which leaves the Scottish coaches and the Scottish game in general at the mercy of those clubs for training camps etc.





It probably would improve the club game, but I don't think that would translate into national success.

I suppose it depends on what you see as the end-goal - a stronger club game in Scotland or a stronger national side. The two don't always align.

Its not about having a great club game its about giving more young scottish rugby players the chance to play at a competitive level. Currently you have 2 failing franchises with limited contracts and its not helping the national team.

As for your last sentence your end goal should be both and the two very often align.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

it will help the international selections and also us scotts will get a heads up with a better chance to play for scotland which would probably be better than a bad form team

 

[McTallshort]

Sorry scotty didnt get a word of that

 

[kenny_bee180]

Throw some money in Danny brough's direction.

 

[Peat]

Its not about having a great club game its about giving more young scottish rugby players the chance to play at a competitive level. Currently you have 2 failing franchises with limited contracts and its not helping the national team.

As for your last sentence your end goal should be both and the two very often align.

Think calling Glasgow failing is overegging your argument somewhat.

I can see the logic mind. Don't agree with it; I don't think once you've handed out the money that the SRU gives to the Pro game to the current Scots Premiership minus two, that you get a Championship-strength league. Not if you're going to invest more money in minis and schools rugby, and academy style structures, which I think is more important. I would point out that the AIL is, by most accounts, pretty poo, but there's still plenty of Irish lads getting signed up by Championship clubs on the strength or maybe a dozen of so Pro 12 games, a dozen or so A games and talent developed. The same thing a lot of young Scottish lads have in other word, save Scotland's talent development system is worse.

I also think there's serious risks in trying to sell a game to kids where its "Btw, you can't watch anyone good at home, you can't aspire to playing for someone sorta local and being an international".

They do need to find more money to fund development somewhere though.

 

[McTallshort]

"Btw, you can't watch anyone good at home, you can't aspire to playing for someone sorta local and being an international".

But thats just it they dont watch anyone good at home anyway because the 2 franchises are as far away from the ordinary scots rugby fans as the nearest PRL side in Newcastle. Teams like Melrose are currently behind English Championship side but are as good as anything below that in the English game. I think too many Irish rugby fans think the Scottish game needs to follow their example when in truth the example they should be looking that is Argentina's.

 

[Peat]

But thats just it they dont watch anyone good at home anyway because the 2 franchises are as far away from the ordinary scots rugby fans as the nearest PRL side in Newcastle. Teams like Melrose are currently behind English Championship side but are as good as anything below that in the English game. I think too many Irish rugby fans think the Scottish game needs to follow their example when in truth the example they should be looking that is Argentina's.

Last I checked, there were Scots rugby fans outside the Borders. The Scottish Premiership has more teams from Embra than it does from the Borders.

I think too many people are fixated about the Borders' part in Scottish rugby history and believe its a big part of the solution for Scottish rugby going forwards. That's probably not true. Simple truth is that if Scotland wish to keep up, they need to engage the whole country and create new players. It is the only possible solution. Scottish rugby needs to be centered around the big population centres as a) they have plenty of fans there anyway b) that's where the converts are.

And if you are going to convert them you need a product to inspire them. A small league in which the best players keep going away is not that product. It has to be rugby with internationals to root for and big teams coming to visit.

Oh, and by Argentine example, would that be the same Argentina that have signed up for a Super Rugby franchise and will probably seek to add more? No serious rugby power wants a model based on exporting their best players.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Last I checked, there were Scots rugby fans outside the Borders. The Scottish Premiership has more teams from Embra than it does from the Borders.

I think too many people are fixated about the Borders' part in Scottish rugby history and believe its a big part of the solution for Scottish rugby going forwards. That's probably not true. Simple truth is that if Scotland wish to keep up, they need to engage the whole country and create new players. It is the only possible solution. Scottish rugby needs to be centered around the big population centres as a) they have plenty of fans there anyway b) that's where the converts are.

And if you are going to convert them you need a product to inspire them. A small league in which the best players keep going away is not that product. It has to be rugby with internationals to root for and big teams coming to visit.

Oh, and by Argentine example, would that be the same Argentina that have signed up for a Super Rugby franchise and will probably seek to add more? No serious rugby power wants a model based on exporting their best players.

that is true. in scotland where i play rugby most the teams we get beat by are from teams up north off the country, not because were bad or anything they beat up by good attacking rugby so a professional team up north wouldn't be s**t, well maybe at the first season but im sure they'll progress very well and with treviso going to quit the pro 12 there is an opportunity for scotland to get a 3rd team in there. but the Caledonia Reds are trying to get into the pro 12 next year to replace treviso and they're suppose to be based up in perth so thats a good step

 

[McTallshort]

Last I checked, there were Scots rugby fans outside the Borders. The Scottish Premiership has more teams from Embra than it does from the Borders.

I think too many people are fixated about the Borders' part in Scottish rugby history and believe its a big part of the solution for Scottish rugby going forwards. That's probably not true. Simple truth is that if Scotland wish to keep up, they need to engage the whole country and create new players. It is the only possible solution. Scottish rugby needs to be centered around the big population centres as a) they have plenty of fans there anyway b) that's where the converts are.

And if you are going to convert them you need a product to inspire them. A small league in which the best players keep going away is not that product. It has to be rugby with internationals to root for and big teams coming to visit.

Oh, and by Argentine example, would that be the same Argentina that have signed up for a Super Rugby franchise and will probably seek to add more? No serious rugby power wants a model based on exporting their best players.

Yeah but the population centres in Scotland are all football or Fitball mad and having the 2 franchises in Glasgow and Edinburgh has not improved the fortunes of the national team or Rugby in Scotland in general.

Its ok using phrases like "engage the whole country" etc etc but the reality of the situation is that Rugby Union in Scotland is very localized and essentially rural and taking it to the population centres just moves it from the rugby heartlands and as we have seen with the current 2 teams.

And yes Argentina are joining super rugby but that has come off the back of being able to punch above their weight in the International game which in turn has come off their semi pro domestic league with its best players learning their trade in France and England. Its had to build its way up its also whats happening in Georgia and thats what I believe Scotland and Italy need to do.

 

[Peat]

Yeah but the population centres in Scotland are all football or Fitball mad and having the 2 franchises in Glasgow and Edinburgh has not improved the fortunes of the national team or Rugby in Scotland in general.

Its ok using phrases like "engage the whole country" etc etc but the reality of the situation is that Rugby Union in Scotland is very localized and essentially rural and taking it to the population centres just moves it from the rugby heartlands and as we have seen with the current 2 teams.

And yes Argentina are joining super rugby but that has come off the back of being able to punch above their weight in the International game which in turn has come off their semi pro domestic league with its best players learning their trade in France and England. Its had to build its way up its also whats happening in Georgia and thats what I believe Scotland and Italy need to do.

Just because it hasn't happened overnight doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do and just because the changes haven't been dramatic doesn't mean they haven't been there.

One positive change is the SRU's debt is now at its lowest point in ten years. It's now around 11m. They were 23m in debt back in 2006/07. Once that is paid off, they can look seriously introducing more regions again. The Reivers were losing 2m a year and had crowds of about 1,200. Even than, Glasgow were getting 2,000 in with Edinburgh getting 2,600 in on average. That to me would seem to torpedo the idea that all of the Scottish rugby fans are in the borders.

Which brings me to another point. Attendances. Embra averaged 4,299 last season with Glasgow averaging 4,900. Crowds have increased strongly and the near 150pc increase at Glasgow in six years would suggest that, actually, taking pro rugby to Scotland's big population centres and trying to attract a following can work.

Performance on the pitch has also improved. The three seasons before they folded up the Reivers, only twice (once Glasgow and once Embra) did a Scots team scrape into the top half of the Celtic League. The next season after the Borders went, Embra and Glasgow were 4th and 5th. There has only been one season since then without a Scottish team in the top 4.

The international team's performance is about the only place where there hasn't been an improvement - 5th, 3rd, 6th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th are their results since the Regions merger; 2 6th places, 1 3rd, 1 4th and 1 5th in the five seasons preceding. I am too lazy to do comparisons of results against the SH, although Scotland did beat SA at home and Aus home and away under Robinson. But yeah. The healthier state of the finances and elite sides hasn't fed through yet.

In just about every other sense, Scotland's position has improved since deciding to axe the Borders and concentrate on Embra and Glasgow. They have proven that the game can be grown and that it doesn't need to rely on the Borders to survive. What you are saying about Scottish rugby, Tallshort, does not appear to be backed up by a close inspection of the facts.

Neither looking at the Scots Schools rugby cup page - dominated by Embra independents with a bit of competition from central belt state schools - the Scots U20 squad - most of them from Embra with Caledonia, Glasgow, Borders and England all well represented - or the Scots domestic league, with its Embra dominated Premiership, three Embra teams at the top of Division 1 followed by Dundee - convinces me that the Scottish game is rural and can't thrive in cities. Scottish rugby fans, please correct me if wrong, but it certainly looks like Edinburgh is your heartland on paper. Plus don't Scotland normally sell out Pittodrie when they play there? Would seem to indicate there's some ground for a pro rugby venture there.

As for your comparison with Argentina - Scotland and Italy don't have to build up to having elite rugby at home because they already have it. That simple. Elite rugby and exporting players are not mutually exclusive anyway as borne out by any cursory inspection of a Scottish or Italian national squad. There is no guarantee that Scotland or Italy would get elite domestic rugby back if they abandoned it. Elite domestic rugby is something every rugby nation is aiming for. They would be idiots to abandon it.

 

[SimonG]

How do Scots turn it around? Have more Scots play sport.

I have heard phone ins on this subject with Scots phoning in about playing parks being closed down, or sold off to be replaced by a shopping centre. With more technology to occupy themselves less youngsters are participating in sport, this applies everywhere, but this problem seems to be even more profound in Scotland. Its a societal problem...there is also an issue with drink/drugs etc. The conveyor belt of great Scottish footballers has dried up...all the top clubs in England used to be flooded with them, legends of the game. Scots now are an endangered species. What has remained stable is the huge viewership of football, but less are actively participating.

When did the Scotland football team last qualify for the World Cup? 1998. When were the Scotland Rugby team any good? Around the same time. The playing pool of Scots in sports has fallen hence the need to import foreigners (ie.Sean Maitland) to put on a Scotland jersey. There are obvious success stories of Scots since then...Andy Murray (who had to go to Spain to develop), Chris Hoy (had the indoor facilities in England).

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

How do Scots turn it around? Have more Scots play sport.

I have heard phone ins on this subject with Scots phoning in about playing parks being closed down, or sold off to be replaced by a shopping centre. With more technology to occupy themselves less youngsters are participating in sport, this applies everywhere, but this problem seems to be even more profound in Scotland. Its a societal problem...there is also an issue with drink/drugs etc. The conveyor belt of great Scottish footballers has dried up...all the top clubs in England used to be flooded with them, legends of the game. Scots now are an endangered species. What has remained stable is the huge viewership of football, but less are actively participating.

When did the Scotland football team last qualify for the World Cup? 1998. When were the Scotland Rugby team any good? Around the same time. The playing pool of Scots in sports has fallen hence the need to import foreigners (ie.Sean Maitland) to put on a Scotland jersey. There are obvious success stories of Scots since then...Andy Murray (who had to go to Spain to develop), Chris Hoy (had the indoor facilities in England).

im not to sure about that there is quite alot off rugby pitches in scotland i atleast see about 5 a day (different ones) and recently a construction for a 3g pitch has been built not so long ago. but maybe the fact off murray training in spain and chris hoy in england is true. but were not on about other sports just rugby atm so

 

[SimonG]

The lack of pitches/facilities (or certainly less than previously) is only one issue, the main one as I mentioned was less participation..technology is one reason (I know I'm far less active because of it).

Other sports are mentioned because it's a broad issue and isn't just restricted to one sport..outdoor Scottish sports participation has lowered thus the playing pool has also. Less kids are playing football on the streets. Generally, less are outside playing sport. Scotland also has a social issue regarding drink/drugs.

 

[sigesige00]

Since I am not very familiar with the history of Scottish sport, I have some questions.
Why are the national stadiums of Rugby and Cricket in Edinburgh, not Glasgow?
Why does Scotland not have a decent athletic stadium? Scotstoun (Glasgow) is an international standard stadium, but the capacity is only 5,000 and normally used by Glasgow Warriors.
Should Scotland go independent, Scotland needs a decent athletic stadium... If a decent large athletic stadium were to be built in Glasgow, Partick Thistle would be happy to move to that stadium, like West Ham United moving to the Olympic Stadium.
b