Savea to Crusaders?

[Larksea]

all of a sudden out of left field the chiefs are now front runners for savea

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9104478/Chiefs-surprise-leaders-for-Saveas-signature

I guess with a number of big names leaving (kahui, Clarke, Masaga, Leonard) the chiefs should have the cash for Savea and even SBW too. They still need to hunt for a top shelf lock

 

[ABs2011]

Remember that there are now basically no ties between province and Super Rugby team, except for arbitrary ones.

Even ignoring that, Cruden, Smith, Dagg, Guildford, the Whitelocks and Crosswell were all lost prior to Hammett and co. having any influence. Fitzgerald was picked up by a particularly intelligent coaching contingent, and probably most people around the country would still rate him below the likes of Eaton, Broadhurst and Thrush.

Nonu and Hore are understandable (particularly Nonu). I think the major problem is that the Hurricanes are holding onto a bunch of older journeymen players who are never going to amount to much more than they already do. Thrush, Broadhurst, Goodes, Lam, Smiley etc. are all fine players, but they aren't going to improve any more, they've plateaued, so you can't expect the team to improve that much. Obviously there's room for growth with players like Barrett, Ardie Savea etc. still young and promising. But there aren't enough of them. The Hurricanes are actually a lot like the Crusaders, except their players are just worse, on average. George Whitelock is not going to get any better than he already is, but his current state is still above Levave, Lam and the like.

That's not really accurate - Cruden was lost post the Te Puni regime. As per Iceman's post so were Weepu,and Gear and the list could go on an on!! And who have we recruited of note during this time??? No one!!! It's a massive problem mate, no question!!

On top of that, of course their are links between provinces and Super franchises. I agree now players are jumping ship a lot more BUT franchises where the players reside, as a result of the players coming through their system, are effectively first in line to lock these guys in to contracts at young ages, treat them well, and keep them. This is not happening at the Hurricanes! The Hurricanes have always been particularly poor at looking beyond the Wellington border. Note many of the players I mention are from the Bay or Manawatu. These guys at these unions often feel overlooked and leave.

Not sure about your comments on "journeymen players" Thrush (Still only 28 and now an All Black) Goodes (as per Irish Rugby Man - only 21 and a really big talent), Lam (only 25 and I thought one of the more impressive players for the Canes in 2012).

 

[ABs2011]

The other point I would make in terms of Nonu and Hore (who both left under Hammett and Te Puni) is you can never place all blame for such events on just the players. Te Puni is charged with running a successful franchise, Hammett is charged with winning rugby games. Neither have done their job and as a result players have become unhappy. Im not saying for a minute that Hore and Nonu were angels, clearly they were not, but with better management I don't believe it would have blown up like it did. Case and point being the All Blacks environment where both Hore and Nonu have thrived and are both still integral parts and to the best of my knowledge have not had any of the issues that they had at the Hurricanes. Point being , Hammett and Te Puni must accept some blame for losing Nonu and Hore.

 

[ABs2011]

Oh and the Hurricanes managed to let slip arguably one of the best coaches in NZ Rugby as well.....

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

That's not really accurate - Cruden was lost post the Te Puni regime. As per Iceman's post so were Weepu,and Gear and the list could go on an on!! And who have we recruited of note during this time??? No one!!! It's a massive problem mate, no question!!

On top of that, of course their are links between provinces and Super franchises. I agree now players are jumping ship a lot more BUT franchises where the players reside, as a result of the players coming through their system, are effectively first in line to lock these guys in to contracts at young ages, treat them well, and keep them. This is not happening at the Hurricanes! The Hurricanes have always been particularly poor at looking beyond the Wellington border. Note many of the players I mention are from the Bay or Manawatu. These guys at these unions often feel overlooked and leave.

Not sure about your comments on "journeymen players" Thrush (Still only 28 and now an All Black) Goodes (as per Irish Rugby Man - only 21 and a really big talent), Lam (only 25 and I thought one of the more impressive players for the Canes in 2012).

Cruden's a special one because he obviously had huge ties to Rennie. The same goes for most of the Manawatu players. With regards to the timing, Cruden never had a season with Hammett so it's unfair to place the blame for his defection on the coach.

Thrush is only in the All Blacks because Dominic Bird is injured and Clarke, Williams and Boric have all head off shore. I'm not suggesting he's not a decent Super Rugby player, but he's hardly fantastic. Would he have made the top 20 Super Rugby locks last season? I doubt it. My point is that he's not going to get any better, so why would you expect results to change much? It's not a problem having a couple of these kinds of players in the squad, but when your team is comprised mainly of them it becomes problematic.

 

[ABs2011]

Cruden's a special one because he obviously had huge ties to Rennie. The same goes for most of the Manawatu players. With regards to the timing, Cruden never had a season with Hammett so it's unfair to place the blame for his defection on the coach.

Thrush is only in the All Blacks because Dominic Bird is injured and Clarke, Williams and Boric have all head off shore. I'm not suggesting he's not a decent Super Rugby player, but he's hardly fantastic. Would he have made the top 20 Super Rugby locks last season? I doubt it. My point is that he's not going to get any better, so why would you expect results to change much? It's not a problem having a couple of these kinds of players in the squad, but when your team is comprised mainly of them it becomes problematic.

Invictus, please re-read my post, I clearly said the Te Puni Regime and never tied Cruden to Hammett. Te Puni is the CEO and oversaw Cruden leaving the club! I am not having a go at Hammett in particular, rather the whole Hurricanes regime. That's why I said you were wrong in your previous post. The Hurricanes have lost many players in recent times under Te Puni's leadership and who have we replaced them with?

You are way too harsh on Thrush - yes he would make the top 20 locks in Super Rugby - more importantly though re the Canes is he is the best lock we have! Presumably when you say the major problem is that the Hurricanes are holding onto a bunch of older journeymen players - and you name Thrush and Goodes, you are suggesting you should get rid of them? Again Goodes is 21 so how on earth you can call him an old journey man I cant understand. And Thrush, despite your reasoning is an All Black, he is the best lock the Canes have, yet you think it's a problem that Hurricanes should keep him?? Sorry bro that doesnt make sense at all!

The Hurricanes main problem is that they havent got their act together in the back room. They havent figured out how to manage the 4 ITM cup teams in their catchment area, they fail to look beyond the Wellington boundary enough, they haven't managed to create a happy team environment which 1) retains their players and 2) attracts other good players, and as a result they perform consistently below par.

Now we are about to say goodbye to arguably the biggest talent we have left. Good one Canes!!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Invictus, please re-read my post, I clearly said the Te Puni Regime and never tied Cruden to Hammett. Te Puni is the CEO and oversaw Cruden leaving the club! I am not having a go at Hammett in particular, rather the whole Hurricanes regime. That's why I said you were wrong in your previous post. The Hurricanes have lost many players in recent times under Te Puni's leadership and who have we replaced them with?

You are way too harsh on Thrush - yes he would make the top 20 locks in Super Rugby - more importantly though re the Canes is he is the best lock we have! Presumably when you say the major problem is that the Hurricanes are holding onto a bunch of older journeymen players - and you name Thrush and Goodes, you are suggesting you should get rid of them? Again Goodes is 21 so how on earth you can call him an old journey man I cant understand. And Thrush, despite your reasoning is an All Black, he is the best lock the Canes have, yet you think it's a problem that Hurricanes should keep him?? Sorry bro that doesnt make sense at all!

The Hurricanes main problem is that they havent got their act together in the back room. They havent figured out how to manage the 4 ITM cup teams in their catchment area, they fail to look beyond the Wellington boundary enough, they haven't managed to create a happy team environment which 1) retains their players and 2) attracts other good players, and as a result they perform consistently below par.

Now we are about to say goodbye to arguably the biggest talent we have left. Good one Canes!!

You explicitly said that saying Cruden was lost prior to Hammett was inaccurate... Implying that it was tied to Hammett. I can't argue with you if you're unclear about your meaning.

Like I said, there is no problem having guys like Thrush in the team. I very clearly said that when the make up of your squad consists mainly of these guys that things start to get dicey. I was incorrect about Goodes - it seems like he's been around for a while without ever achieving anything.

For a full list: May, Schwalger, Broadhurst, Eaton, Thrush, Reddish, Lam, Levave, Lowe, Smylie, Pisi, Marshall. They're all good players, I'm not suggesting otherwise. But they're also not great players - most of them wouldn't make the top four or five in the country. When you're surrounded by very good players (such as at the Crusaders) it's not an issue. This isn't the case at the Hurricanes. If they want to improve they should've been fielding a team of:
Franks, Coles, Toomaga-Allen, Thrush, ???, Shield, Savea, Vito, Perenara, Barrett, Savea, Bateman, Smith, Proctor, Taylor
With young players on the bench (Sione, another young centre such as Emery).

Selection is much larger problem with the team than coaching.

 

[ABs2011]

You explicitly said that saying Cruden was lost prior to Hammett was inaccurate... Implying that it was tied to Hammett. I can't argue with you if you're unclear about your meaning.

Like I said, there is no problem having guys like Thrush in the team. I very clearly said that when the make up of your squad consists mainly of these guys that things start to get dicey. I was incorrect about Goodes - it seems like he's been around for a while without ever achieving anything.

For a full list: May, Schwalger, Broadhurst, Eaton, Thrush, Reddish, Lam, Levave, Lowe, Smylie, Pisi, Marshall. They're all good players, I'm not suggesting otherwise. But they're also not great players - most of them wouldn't make the top four or five in the country. When you're surrounded by very good players (such as at the Crusaders) it's not an issue. This isn't the case at the Hurricanes. If they want to improve they should've been fielding a team of:
Franks, Coles, Toomaga-Allen, Thrush, ???, Shield, Savea, Vito, Perenara, Barrett, Savea, Bateman, Smith, Proctor, Taylor
With young players on the bench (Sione, another young centre such as Emery).

Selection is much larger problem with the team than coaching.

First of all I'm not wanting to argue with you, merely pointing out your inaccuracies. The discussion was never about Hammett it was about Hurricanes Management.

For what is is worth (and this will be my last post). My post which started this discussion #32 mentioned all the players the Canes had lost and explicitly called into question "Hurricanes management"! (not Hammett)

You response was to argue a list of players (including Cruden) were lost prior to "Hammett and Co"

Given that we were talking Hurricanes management, I took "co" to mean current management and told you that wasnt accurate because Cruden was lost since Te Puni became CEO .

Regardless the point I am making, and feel free to disagree, is the Hurricanes management has not done the team/region justice. We have more players from the Hurricanes region playing outside the region now than inside so that has to make you wonder doesnt it (and a bunch of those players are or have been All Blacks)?

Playing young fullahs (as you suggest) is a good idea IF they are ready and have the support of experienced players around them. I would argue the reason the Hurricanes have a bunch of the journeymen type players you suggest is a product of management not retaining all their good ones. In terms of the team youve suggested I agree for the most part but don't think youve actually suggested anything particularly different from what the Canes went with for most of the year. I agree with Toomaga-Allen, he should have started more. Disagree with Ardie Savea who was not ready to hold down a starting Super Rugby spot last year, and Taylor was rubbish last year, they gave him a bunch of chances and there was no way they could persist with him any longer. I don't think Proctor was ready either.

Here's another team to make a slightly different point (all players the Hurricanes could have had but lost at one point or annother!!):
Dagg, J Savea*, T Ellison, Nonu, H Gear, Cruden, A. Smith, L Whitelock, G Whitelock, Croswell, S Whitelock, C Clarke, Ma'afu Fia, Hore, Tameifuna
Reseres: H Elliot , R Marshall J Hoeata, Fitzgerrald, D ***jens, P Weepu, J Emery, A Whitelock, Tikoirotuma, Ngatai , Horrell (a few extras in the reserves I know)

 

[William18]

@ Invictus

Cruden left in 2011 so he did have a season under Mark Hammett.

You say selection is a big problem with the team. I can't agree with that.

This is the team you named: Franks, Coles, Toomaga-Allen, Thrush, ???, Shield, Savea, Vito, Perenara, Barrett, Savea, Bateman, Smith, Proctor, Taylor

I have bolded the players who started for the Hurricanes anyway. So your only changes to improve the Hurricanes are as follows:

1. You put a question mark for one of the locks. Well, we can't pick no one.
2. Savea was suspended, then started, then went to the U-20 world cup and then got injured. He played mostly when he was avaialbe. He just wasn't available that often.
3. Leiua played really well. I agree that he is only a solid player but I certainly think he did better than Proctor would have.
4. Andre Taylor actually started most of the season. He was terrible though.

So your solution to the Hurricanes' problems is to pick basically the same side. The only changes you would make is you would replace a lock with nobody, a flanker with someone who is injured, a winger with an unproven rookie and our fullback with someone who was just terrible. I fail to see how any of your changes would actually strengthen us - even if they did the affect would be slight.

ABs2011 is dead on the mark.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

That's the problem with the thinking at the Hurricanes, that winning this current season is the most important thing in the world. They aren't looking at long term growth, when they should be. They simply don't have the players to win the competition at the moment, and haven't for a while, yet there goals haven't changed at all.

 

[nickdnz]

That's the problem with the thinking at the Hurricanes, that winning this current season is the most important thing in the world. They aren't looking at long term growth, when they should be. They simply don't have the players to win the competition at the moment, and haven't for a while, yet there goals haven't changed at all.

In what sense? I'd say this more describes the Highlanders who have just consistenly baught high profile players. The Hurricanes don't seem to make moves to buy in any new talent and don't do anything to secure their own young talent. It's just a mess. The Canes region have produced the three of seven IRB Jr players of the year in Fruean, Savea and Cruden - add to that Guildford (who I don't really care that he left) but also Emery, Aaron Smith, Dagg who played within our region - and then guys who were identified outside of NPC like the Whitelocks.

Now if the management felt "well - we need results and these guys seems a bit too far off to develop" then fine. But instead we sign Tusi Pisi and Smylie - who are alright but just journeymen. We managed to get Ben Franks, which to be frank (sorry for the pun) is just not enough. The last big signing we managed prior to that was like Jonah Lomu...How is it that all our players can get signed else where - we can't keep them - but we can't afford to buy decent players from anyone else. It's a shambles.

 

[ABs2011]

In what sense? I'd say this more describes the Highlanders who have just consistenly baught high profile players. The Hurricanes don't seem to make moves to buy in any new talent and don't do anything to secure their own young talent. It's just a mess. The Canes region have produced the three of seven IRB Jr players of the year in Fruean, Savea and Cruden - add to that Guildford (who I don't really care that he left) but also Emery, Aaron Smith, Dagg who played within our region - and then guys who were identified outside of NPC like the Whitelocks.

Now if the management felt "well - we need results and these guys seems a bit too far off to develop" then fine. But instead we sign Tusi Pisi and Smylie - who are alright but just journeymen. We managed to get Ben Franks, which to be frank (sorry for the pun) is just not enough. The last big signing we managed prior to that was like Jonah Lomu...How is it that all our players can get signed else where - we can't keep them - but we can't afford to buy decent players from anyone else. It's a shambles.

Yup I completely agree. The only thing I will give Invictus is his point about youth, but only so far as the Hurricanes need to keep them in our system so when they are ready they are Hurricanes contracted players and can make their way into the starting XV. To any Hurricanes fan/follower it is obvious that team selection is not the main issue it is player retention (and arguably acquistion). You really only need to look at the long list of players who "should" be at the Hurricanes but are not to see that. The worst thing is that so many of those players are so young.

Here's a team of guys who should be playing for the Hurricanes but are not who are all 26 or under!! (need some help filling the loosies though)

Dagg, J Savea*, R Feuean, J Emery, Zac Guildford, Cruden, A. Smith, L Whitelock, G Whitelock (27), Croswell (27), M Fitzgerrald, S Whitelock, Ma'afu Fia, R Marshall, Tameifuna

 

[nickdnz]

AAAAANNNNNNDDDDDDDD....

He's signed back with the Canes for two more years. Phew.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

That's a good thing. If Savea would move to the Crusaders, it would weaken the opposition rather than strengthen the Crusaders. Reminds me a bit of the Scott Parker transfer from Charlton Athletic to Chelsea several years ago.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

That's a good thing. If Savea would move to the Crusaders, it would weaken the opposition rather than strengthen the Crusaders. Reminds me a bit of the Scott Parker transfer from Charlton Athletic to Chelsea several years ago.

Anyone leaving Charlton would weaken them. I'm pretty sure if my 6 year old niece signed for them she would easily be their best player.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Anyone leaving Charlton would weaken them. I'm pretty sure if my 6 year old niece signed for them she would easily be their best player.

Well, back then, in 2004, Charlton Athletic were in 2nd place in the Premiership, while Chelsea was in 1st place. Scott Parker was by far their best player. Charlton Athletic now is a ****ty team with even worse management. Back in 2004, they had a very good team with Richard Rufus, Mark Fish, Paulo di Canio, Kevin Lisbie, Shaun Bartlett and Carlton Cole.