Sam Burgess U Turn

[nickdnz]

Well when England does a **** poor job of copying NZ in nearly every way (except winning) then we have a talking point dont we?

And the only reasons SBW went to toulon was Tana and the $$$$ (the lower tier rugby to start out also helped).

With your obviously great knowledge of the English game - I'd love for you to elaborate on that.

For the record, England has selected league players years before SBW was on the scene: Robinson, Farrell, Vainikolo, Henry Paul, Hape to name a few.

 

[Tony Manx]

Not that I have anything new to add - but I called this when he was signed.

The reality is he signed 6 months out from a RWC, with that tournament being his big carrot.

People are saying the RFU mismanaged the situation - and they are right in that they led him to believe he would be ready to play in a RWC after 6 months - but I doubt if he didn't make the RWC squad he'd still be sticking around either. As it was, it seems he hasn't especially enjoyed his time in union. His big 'carrot' of a RWC ended up in England's worst ever tournament at home, uncertainty whether he was a forward or a back, him losing money to poor market speculating, and pretty constant media circus surrounding whether he should/shouldn't be in the squad. If he wasn't selected for England's squad he'd likely be in a similar situation of feelling under-valued.

In reality I think he wanted to play in a RWC - not necessarily be a rugby union player.

Sonny Bill Williams is probably a bit the same. As much as his popularity is on the up - he has definetely picked his times to be a rugby union player in New Zealand. 2010-2012 - enough time to make a bid at rugby union in NZ to make the 2011 RWC squad, while also giving him time to play in Japan and still make the NRL season. 20114-2016 - enough time to be included on the EOYT and make another bid for the RWC, and 2016 allows him access to the Olympics. He may stick around for 2017 with a Lions tour to go.

The point I'm making (and not taking anything away from him) - is that his career ambitions seem to be very 'reward oriented' - rather than based on developing with one team and being the best he could possibly be at that one thing.

For Sam Burgess, he is a legend in rugby league. Whatever people think of his 'potential' in union - I think they are naieve to think a return to being the pinnacle wouldn't have always been more alluring. Nothing about this at all has surprised me.

Agree with all that and have been trying to say the same thing!!

 

[McTallshort]

Wish we could draw a line under it all now, he said his heart wasn't in and he missed his mum. Great, good for you now bog off back to your mothers apron strings and shut up.

 

[Wimero]

Wish we could draw a line under it all now, he said his heart wasn't in and he missed his mum. Great, good for you now bog off back to your mothers apron strings and shut up.

Yeah.My view as well.It's not that big a deal SB clearing off back to league.If I was a Bath fan I'd be a lot happier having Denton in the back row anyway.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah.My view as well.It's not that big a deal SB clearing off back to league.If I was a Bath fan I'd be a lot happier having Denton in the back row anyway.

Definitely, Denton is a much better back row. Needs to develop his passing but still a lot better.

 

[The Jones Boy]

He's gone, get over it.

 

[ncurd]

He's gone, get over it.

From the guy who couldn't stop telling how great Burgess was and our greatest center Eva!

 

[McTallshort]

From the guy who couldn't stop telling how great Burgess was and our greatest center Eva!

+1

 

[smartcooky]

From the guy who couldn't stop telling how great Burgess was and our greatest center Eva!

The thing is, he could have been if they hadn't made such a total pig's breakfast of his transition to RU.

1. They needed to make the decision to sign him earlier, like, 2+ years ago

2. England and Bath needed to be on the same page; play him at 6 or 12, NOT both.

 

[ncurd]

Bath always said they saw him as back row and merely gave him time at center so he could have game time there. No idea where the concept of of their indecisiveness came from.

As for center watching every televised match he played for Bath and England he just never looked right yet seamed natural when he played at 6.

So yeah I disagree quite a bit about him being brilliant at center.


Can't disagree on the 2 year for this world cup however Bath clearly felt this was year 2 of 3 in his training.

 

[The Jones Boy]

From the guy who couldn't stop telling how great Burgess was and our greatest center Eva!

He could be if you had a coach with half a brain and no Andy Farrell spending all his time trying to shoe horn his son into the starting line up and keep Cipriani out of the picture.
Englands midfield is mediocre at best.
Any international team that starts Brad Barritt as a regular is never going to make a dent in a marshmallow on attack. Its not like Burgess had a lot of competition.
He also would have been your best loose forward as well at 6, 7 or 8.
If you want to compete at international level , listen to even old has beens like Clive Woodward and they will all say the same mantra, you need SPEED at the breakdown. Not one of the regular starting English loose forward trio had an ounce of gas to compare with the Aussies or the Kiwi's. Burgess was bigger than most of them if not all of them and twice as fast, and he tackled harder. He looked the business against France and thats why they picked him with the resident Leicester Samoan out of the picture.
He was crapped on from a great height by the English press and you were winning when he was dragged.

 

[Colombia]

He could be if you had a coach with half a brain and no Andy Farrell spending all his time trying to shoe horn his son into the starting line up and keep Cipriani out of the picture.
Englands midfield is mediocre at best.
Any international team that starts Brad Barritt as a regular is never going to make a dent in a marshmallow on attack. Its not like Burgess had a lot of competition.
He also would have been your best loose forward as well at 6, 7 or 8.
If you want to compete at international level , listen to even old has beens like Clive Woodward and they will all say the same mantra, you need SPEED at the breakdown. Not one of the regular starting English loose forward trio had an ounce of gas to compare with the Aussies or the Kiwi's. Burgess was bigger than most of them if not all of them and twice as fast, and he tackled harder. He looked the business against France and thats why they picked him with the resident Leicester Samoan out of the picture.
He was crapped on from a great height by the English press and you were winning when he was dragged.

I think Burgess wanted to play 12, he said as much yesterday, while Bath wanted him to play 6.

Mike Ford, Bath coach, was pretty adamant Burgess should play blindside. Burgess weighed it up, saw there was no chance for him to play for England at 6 and left town.

Thing is, England are still weak at 12, they have been since the Greenwood/Catt days. Burgess could've been that guy, but he left before we could find out.

 

[nickdnz]

The thing is, he could have been if they hadn't made such a total pig's breakfast of his transition to RU.

1. They needed to make the decision to sign him earlier, like, 2+ years ago

2. England and Bath needed to be on the same page; play him at 6 or 12, NOT both.

Whose to say they could afford him two years ago?

He wanted to go to union because it was a World Cup year. I don't think he would have passed up a rugby league world cup to do so.

I honestly think his transition was always doomed to fail; simply because it seemed to be based on a desire to play in a one-off tournament. Nothing about his subsequent departure makes me think he'd have chosen to leave league two years earlier to earn an England call-up.

In my opinion the fault lies with the RFU in spending 500k a season, over someone they overestimated their desire to be a union player.

 

[Colombia]

In my opinion the fault lies with the RFU in spending 500k a season, over someone they overestimated their desire to be a union player.

Someone can correct me here but I think it was actually totally down to Bath, I believe the RFU didn't get involved since they had their fingers burnt in the past. Bath's owner is a billionaire.

 

[nickdnz]

Someone can correct me here but I think it was actually totally down to Bath, I believe the RFU didn't get involved since they had their fingers burnt in the past. Bath's owner is a billionaire.

Fair point.

Yeah, it's interesting Sam Burgess gets criticisms from Bath with lines like "He didn't have the heart for Bath". Yeah...no sh*t. He pretty clearly wanted to play for England in a World Cup. If they were thinking he's always wanted to be a Bath player, they were probably kidding themselves.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Someone can correct me here but I think it was actually totally down to Bath, I believe the RFU didn't get involved since they had their fingers burnt in the past. Bath's owner is a billionaire.

Very interesting.

 

[Peat]

Fair point.

Yeah, it's interesting Sam Burgess gets criticisms from Bath with lines like "He didn't have the heart for Bath". Yeah...no sh*t. He pretty clearly wanted to play for England in a World Cup. If they were thinking he's always wanted to be a Bath player, they were probably kidding themselves.

He didn't have to sign for three years to try playing at the World Cup.

I personally tend to the theory that he came over in all sincerity, just with huge amounts of naivety and overconfidence about what was waiting. Not that it particularly matters by now mind.

 

[ncurd]

He could be if you had a coach with half a brain and no Andy Farrell spending all his time trying to shoe horn his son into the starting line up and keep Cipriani out of the picture.
Englands midfield is mediocre at best.
Any international team that starts Brad Barritt as a regular is never going to make a dent in a marshmallow on attack. Its not like Burgess had a lot of competition.
He also would have been your best loose forward as well at 6, 7 or 8.
If you want to compete at international level , listen to even old has beens like Clive Woodward and they will all say the same mantra, you need SPEED at the breakdown. Not one of the regular starting English loose forward trio had an ounce of gas to compare with the Aussies or the Kiwi's. Burgess was bigger than most of them if not all of them and twice as fast, and he tackled harder. He looked the business against France and thats why they picked him with the resident Leicester Samoan out of the picture.
He was crapped on from a great height by the English press and you were winning when he was dragged.

No one's going to argue with you about Barritt or selection issues.

However he was not brilliant against France he was good enough which pretty much described his entire Union career however that's not world class calibre stuff he was producing and looked way more a blindside than a center in that match. Your the only one who gushes about him in that game everyone else way looking at the true star at center in that game Henry Slade.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I agree that Henry Slade should have been given a go, however, the murky water in the management reservoir meant that players of talent and honed skill like Cipriani were actively manoeuvred out of the squad even though they were clearly in form. What chance was Slade ever going to have of getting a look in if Cips was being ushered out.
Cips was head and shoulders above his backline teammates against France. You can tell when a player is in the purple patch, you can sense the ball coming to them before it does. It was a stone cold crime that Cips wasn't in the England team and Andy Farrell should be arrested for treason. However, on the other side, he's still a great go-to option for England and he's free of the taint of the RWC 2015

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I like you.