Salary Cap Investigations

[Which Tyler]

I heard the 7 game thing is a Premiership rule, not just a Sarries rule, but I can't swear to it. The Pro14 has different rules, and I feel like France's Top14 just ignore the idea altogether...

My understanding is that the total number of games is an RFU/PRL rule

 

[Chief Pete]

So why will any of this affect the academy? England's tier 2 has them, even if it comes to that which I doubt it will.

Sarries aren't too big to go down, they're not a special case. Seems some of their fans hubris (not you, Griz) knows no bounds.

Also LOL at suggestions Bristol are above the cap, with a squad with less names than the majority of the premiership. 2 Marquee excluded, Pat Lam said Bristol haven't spent up to the cap either leaving a bit of room. I would look at Barf, Quins and Exeter especially as Baxter said they couldn't re-sign their England capped players a while back due to the salary cap yet proceeded to do so anyway. Large squad too IIRC.

I know you disliked my post and I know your comment was aimed at me, I'm not suggesting your breaking any rules, I was responding to a post which asked who may be looked at, your throwing money around like confetti and as a result will whether you like it or not arouse suspicion...

Regarding Chiefs, If we are being looked at then fair enough...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Most clubs are probably using creative accounting to stay under the cap - Sarries just flew too close to the sun (a 35 point reduction is for clubs at least 650k over the cap).

I heard that Bristol were over the cap when they were in the championship - no idea if they still are cause they probably had to pay a lot to convince the big names to join a second tier comp

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Most clubs are probably using creative accounting to stay under the cap - Sarries just flew too close to the sun (a 35 point reduction is for clubs at least 650k over the cap).

I heard that Bristol were over the cap when they were in the championship - no idea if they still are cause they probably had to pay a lot to convince the big names to join a second tier comp

I read that Sarries were 660k over (twitter, could be bogus) and thought it sounded small considering loads of clubs were reportedly over. Wouldn't be surprised if they were being monitored fairly closely and the PRL just pounced as soon as they could give them the big penalty. Clubs will be rewarding carefully for seasons to come as a result.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think 650K was the max they could be over for that wrist slapping

 

[Chief Pete]

I read that Sarries were 660k over (twitter, could be bogus) and thought it sounded small considering loads of clubs were reportedly over. Wouldn't be surprised if they were being monitored fairly closely and the PRL just pounced as soon as they could give them the big penalty. Clubs will be rewarding carefully for seasons to come as a result.

Sarries really didn't need to neither, their academy is top notch, so for the sake of stockpiling a few players it's blown right up in their face...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think 650K was the max they could be over for that wrist slapping

If this guy has his facts right then 35pts is for anything over 650k.

Also he says the fine is £3 for every £1 over, so they were £1.7m over the cap(!!!)

https://medium.com/@jakedpope/kane-...aracens-salary-cap-investigation-360c6dc2e26a

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

So why will any of this affect the academy? England's tier 2 has them, even if it comes to that which I doubt it will.

Sarries aren't too big to go down, they're not a special case. Seems some of their fans hubris (not you, Griz) knows no bounds.

Also LOL at suggestions Bristol are above the cap, with a squad with less names than the majority of the premiership. 2 Marquee excluded, Pat Lam said Bristol haven't spent up to the cap either leaving a bit of room. I would look at Barf, Quins and Exeter especially as Baxter said they couldn't re-sign their England capped players a while back due to the salary cap yet proceeded to do so anyway. Large squad too IIRC.

basic behavioral economics. I'm assuming Saracens pumps a lot of money into their academy knowing they will get to keep the guys in the future. If they know that they won't be keeping as many of those players in the future, there is less of an incentive to invest in their academy. Basically they'd be getting less output for the same amount of input. Humans want to maximize output while minimizing input. It would make sense that in the future Saracens would invest less in their academy.

IMHO this is why I universally believe salary caps and drafts to be terrible for sport (in addition to their extremely anti-labour origins and the fact they don't really help parity, just look at american sports). They reduce the incentive to invest in developing your own talent since you won't get to keep it. And I don't want to hear that it incentivizes teams to develop their own talent instead of buying players. A rational team will always prefer to develop talent since it's cheaper in the long run than paying for superstars.

 

[higgik]

It is about time the salary cap was publicly available like in the NFL. strict cap with all salaries available.
Also another thing I would bring in from NFL would be revenue sharing.

 

[Leinster Fan]

So why will any of this affect the academy? England's tier 2 has them, even if it comes to that which I doubt it will.

Sarries aren't too big to go down, they're not a special case. Seems some of their fans hubris (not you, Griz) knows no bounds.

Also LOL at suggestions Bristol are above the cap, with a squad with less names than the majority of the premiership. 2 Marquee excluded, Pat Lam said Bristol haven't spent up to the cap either leaving a bit of room. I would look at Barf, Quins and Exeter especially as Baxter said they couldn't re-sign their England capped players a while back due to the salary cap yet proceeded to do so anyway. Large squad too IIRC.

Don't know much about Bristol to be fair but is Ian Madigan not on something ridiculous like half a million?

 

[ncurd]

Honestly we have to remember Sarries got off Scott free essentially a couple of seasons back with Bath and someone else I can't remember.

I wouldn't be surprised if other clubs have been doing similar. However methinks Prem Rugby was happy to turn a blind eye to it. When they saw how much over they were pushing it though action had to be taken. This also acts as a shot across the bow for other clubs trying to force them to get their acts in order.

The fact other clubs haven't been called in suggest if they were breaking the rules it wasn't by massive amounts.

 

[Derpus]

For what it's worth Salary cap breaches happen all the time in NRL and they never really amount to much more than a fine.

Anyway, if you are looking to lighten to salary load send Big Will our way.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I struggle to see how their is less incentive to fund the academy?


If anything the cap gives clubs more incentives to fund their academies, because they are cheaper than the standard journeyman and have more potential (potentially).
Tigers had to invest a lot of time into their academy because they needed to increase the quality coming in to help with the rising senior squad.

Let's face it does Sarries really need an aus international like Skelton in their squad?

Honestly we have to remember Sarries got off Scott free essentially a couple of seasons back with Bath and someone else I can't remember.

I wouldn't be surprised if other clubs have been doing similar. However methinks Prem Rugby was happy to turn a blind eye to it. When they saw how much over they were pushing it though action had to be taken. This also acts as a shot across the bow for other clubs trying to force them to get their acts in order.

The fact other clubs haven't been called in suggest if they were breaking the rules it wasn't by massive amounts.

Most likely IMO that the clubs drew a line under the previous scandal and everyone got something to smooth it over.
The other clubs stopped going over, whereas Sarries who thought they were clever most likely carried on taking the ****.



on the public salary cap thing I don't agree with it.
As long as it is provided to an independent body in detail who earns what etc then that's fine.

Also a public cap wouldn't stop this since it was committed and hidden from the cap review, so literally would change nothing, but give the people and clubs a good old nosy into what rugby players really earn.

 

[Rinkadink]

I heard that Bristol were over the cap when they were in the championship - no idea if they still are cause they probably had to pay a lot to convince the big names to join a second tier comp

There is no cap in the championship, there were quite a number of people wrongly claiming we were front-loading contracts (basically as no cap in championship, pay millions for first year then 1 for the final) which is explicitly accounted for in the rules. Must have linked that one a half dozen times at least online.

Basically it really is a case of a class coach and culture changing our fortunes and as ever, the establishment don't like the natural order being upset. Just compare the squads of Saracens or Barf and really it's night and day. I recall looking at the Sarries legit second string team last season and out of the 23 there was something like 17-18 fully fledged internationals, it was ridiculous

Madigan isn't on half million a year and is looking like leaving as he's dropped to 3rd or 4th choice 10. Wouldn't be surprised to see him released early if he gets an offer, we love him and he's happy here but that's the way it's panning out this season. We did sign an unhappy second choice player from Bordeaux so it would have been decent but not earth shattering. I recall a figure of 360k being touted somewhere but can't give you a link as it was years ago. Sounds about right IMO.

Charles Piutau is one of the Marquee players and would guess Luatua is the other. Besides Afoa (who many wrote off as too old) and Hughes there aren't exactly any big earners mostly consisting of WIP or savvy second string signings allowed to flourish at Bristol such as Hurrell or Holmes or Molton. Even swapped Vui for Mama at Wuss years ago and won't be huge money.

I'm ill AF (semi self inflicted so will post more later)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Oh so you know the player wages?

look I know your passionate but in reality not many people have a club what clubs are near the cap or not.
Many DOR's will lie for various reasons, (Negotiations, PR, etc etc)

As this whole mess has shown is that too many supporters have blind faith in the stuff behind the scenes.
Many Sarries fans adamant some still are that they are not over the cap, because of what various club officials have said.

 

[Rinkadink]

stuff

Bit ironic coming from Tiggers supporter

But of course the likes of Jake Woolmore and Joe Joyce are on the same amount as Vincent Koch and Nick Isiekwe. Yeah, no. Night and day.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Isiekwe who came from the Sarries academy and is still on the contract he got 2 years ago as a 19 year old that Isiekwe? Realistically Joyce could very well be on the same contract as him considering that he is on a contract that he signed this year as a 25 year old.

Now the question will be how much will Isiekwe be wanting now his contract is up end of this season.

Hey tigers fans are just as bad, although most seem to hate the backroom guys currently anyway.

 

[Scotty]

Its simple and a good punishment this -35 points. They have taken away the points to put them 10th for the last 5 seasons give or take and not get relagated should they perform the same given their squad. Gives them no chance at qualifying for champions cup next season and no chance of winning it this season as their international players minutes need to be keeping them safe in the prem.

Dont forget they got £14 million from CVC as all clubs did so softens the fine blow.

If they get relagated they have enough about them to get back up a season later as while good players will jump ship, not all of them will.

Sarries will be fine long term. So will England rugby. They rolled the dice and lost.

 

[Rinkadink]

Joyce came through our academy and is also going to be discounted. This isn't about Bristol though and it seems to be going that way, happy to discuss in Bears thread if you prefer.

Tiggers BTW have a rich history of interesting financial practices from how amateur days were funded, raiding other clubs through to Murphy wanting the salary cap completely abolished and weren't Leicester one of the clubs that didn't do the "not us" statement alongside Barf and Sarries?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Tony Rowe has demanded that Saracens be relegated and various clubs have said that they'll boycott their games with Saracens if they appeal the punishment.

I'm hoping that such strong words from Rowe mean that we're safely under the cap (which I believe we are).