Salary Cap Investigations

[TRF_Olyy]

No love lost between Dimes and Sarries, and he's always been very outspoken about salary cap cheats - I imagine he had quite a few journos around him at the Euro launch yesterday

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nigel Wray harping on about what he has done at Sarries.

Talking about how property is a risk and not a salary.
Yeh I wish I had the money to risk on the London housing market!!!!!

 

[ncurd]

Nigel Wray harping on about what he has done at Sarries.

Talking about how property is a risk and not a salary.
Yeh I wish I had the money to risk on the London housing market!!!!!

What risk is there in property? Seriously....okay there's some but by far one of the safest investments you can make.

 

[duncanb]

Nigel Wray harping on about what he has done at Sarries.

Talking about how property is a risk and not a salary.
Yeh I wish I had the money to risk on the London housing market!!!!!

London property prices down .9%2018
down 2.9 2019
will sarries be under salary cap as they may be losing money.
Lol.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So England players and the clubs there originally played for (U18's)
Saracens - George, Singleton, Itoje, Farrell, Francis,
Tigers - Cole, Youngs, Ford, Tuilagi
Exeter - LCD, Slade (although both could be argued for Plymouth),
Quins - sinckler, Marler, Launchbury,
Irish - JJ, Watson, Cokanasiga
Bristol - Genge, Mako
Gloucester - Underhill, May
Saints - Lawes, Ludlam
Wasps - Billy,
Dorking - Kruis,
Falcons - Wilson,
Canterbury - Heinz,
Cambridge - Spencer,
Sevens - McConnochie
Pirates - Nowell
Sale - Curry,


I think that is nearly right.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Sale Sharks Academy DPP Strategic Plan 2019-20 10

I do kind of like this whole take that has been happening.
Saracens fans: We don't agree with what has happened BUT we have created English rugby by ourselves and have helped inflate the player wage market in England and are being punished for it.....

I don't see why Saracens should be allowed to use their production of players as an excuse to mismanage the cap.
What about the other clubs who have had players they produced pinched? Like the vunipola brothers?

I don't know why it is so hard for you to grasp what I'm saying...I have not been making excuses for the cap breach assuming the judgement is upheld, just separately raising the issue around retaining developed talent because it is directly related to the salary cap. It is possible to have a reasoned and varied opinion on multiple aspects of a subject...

I think other clubs that develop players should be rewarded. In the Vunipola instances I would expect Bristol (who Mako left at 19/20 and had played one season for) would get less than Wasps would for Billy because he was there until he was 21 and was there longer. Furthermore in the Daly instance the compensation should be even greater because he is an international in his prime. Just because I'm a Saracens fan, doesn't mean I think this shouldn't apply in other instances - one can only imagine the kind of one-eyed philistine that would take that kind of approach to a subject.

In terms of your comment on inflating salaries, I'm not sure how that is the case? The co-investments were used exclusively to retain developed talent and the only examples of "poaching" players from other clubs in the last few years would be Daly, Singleton and at a push Lozowski, two of whom have yet to play a single game. Yes - if another team wanted to recruit one of the Saracens co-investment players they would have to pay over the odds, but I don't think they have drastically impacted the wider market.

You're a sucker for British journalist sensationalism if you buy quotes about "evidence being presented" rather than actual findings. Saracens accepted and paid a punitive fine for the failed disclosure of information, the serious issue (in terms of punishment) is around the co-investments, which it should be noted, Saracens still believe do not constitute salary because of the associated risk and potential to lose all funds, hence the appeal. Personally I disagree and feel like it was at best a dodgy loop-hole and that the appeal will fail. Nonetheless, the official findings stated that "Saracens did not deliberately breach the salary cap", they thought it was a legal loop-hole. I'm sure everyone commenting here has done their due diligence, so there is nothing new in the above, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

I know it's easier to use hyperbole than developing a reasoned argument, but if you try the latter then we might actually get somewhere productive. To reiterate my points in the most simple of terms: Salary Cap Breach = Wrong. Punishment = Deserved. England Team = Worse for this, if anyone thinks differently, please put forward a coherent argument as to why. On a separate note, I think we could use this as a chance to review talent retention and development by Premiership clubs moving forward - it may be this could be improved.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

So England players and the clubs there originally played for (U18's)
Saracens - George, Singleton, Itoje, Farrell, Francis,
Tigers - Cole, Youngs, Ford, Tuilagi
Exeter - LCD, Slade (although both could be argued for Plymouth),
Quins - sinckler, Marler, Launchbury,
Irish - JJ, Watson, Cokanasiga
Bristol - Genge, Mako
Gloucester - Underhill, May
Saints - Lawes, Ludlam
Wasps - Billy,
Dorking - Kruis,
Falcons - Wilson,
Canterbury - Heinz,
Cambridge - Spencer,
Sevens - McConnochie
Pirates - Nowell
Sale - Curry,


I think that is nearly right.

This is interesting, but I'm not sure why there is an U18 cut-off. Do you genuinely believe that Bristol developed Mako more than Saracens? Or that Dorking/Cambridge developed Kruis or Spencer more than Saracens because both joined us when they were 18? Or that Saracens developed Piers Francis more than Auckland or the Blues? There has to be an element of reasonable logic applied, it's obviously not binary.

Also your obvious biases are plainly exposed by attributing Spencer and Kruis' development to other clubs whilst keeping Slade and Nowell at Exeter. For McConnochie you've put Sevens, but he didn't play Sevens until he was 24 so he couldn't possibly have developed as a player in that environment, no it has to be Cranbrook School that take the credit for his development, because that was where he was when he was U18...

I get it - you hate Saracens. But try removing blatant bias from your argument. It's freeing.

 

[Scotty]

So England players and the clubs there originally played for (U18's)
Saracens - George, Singleton, Itoje, Farrell, Francis,
Tigers - Cole, Youngs, Ford, Tuilagi
Exeter - LCD, Slade (although both could be argued for Plymouth),
Quins - sinckler, Marler, Launchbury,
Irish - JJ, Watson, Cokanasiga
Bristol - Genge, Mako
Gloucester - Underhill, May
Saints - Lawes, Ludlam
Wasps - Billy,
Dorking - Kruis,
Falcons - Wilson,
Canterbury - Heinz,
Cambridge - Spencer,
Sevens - McConnochie
Pirates - Nowell
Sale - Curry,


I think that is nearly right.

Always assumed Billy and Mako was in the Sarries academy.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I remember when Billy moved to Sarries - he wasn't too keen but his Mom didn't want him playing against his brother, ha

 

[duncanb]

I do have some sympathy for Saracens here yes they are trying to retain players in what they believed was a legal way/ loophole.
However investigation has proved otherwise (pending appeal or multiple appeals)
Personally I find a cap as such all most a restriction on clubs doing as they want.
Yes I fully understand the principles of level playing field but this also hamstrung clubs in Euro comps compared to French clubs and International contracts.
For me Premership Rugby should have a radical rethink on Cap not as knee jerk reaction but as a way to develop and retain English talent.

For me all players developed by a club from under 20 been in Academy for minimum of 2 years should be excluded from Salary cap.
A cap is then set for all none developed players at a lower level than the 7 mil at present .This is then used on non developed players and overseas players.
Marquee players as present.
This would encourage loyalty by players development of English and cut down influx of 2nd rate international players .
Totally transparency on all players included in cap.

Do I think it will ever happen ,No but Sarries are just a club now caught when sure others for long time have p#@@ed close or beyond the wind.
I personally don't care if its 1 quid or 1 mil over limit many will have done it.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

For me all players developed by a club from under 20 been in Academy for minimum of 2 years should be excluded from Salary cap.
A cap is then set for all none developed players at a lower level than the 7 mil at present .This is then used on non developed players and overseas players.
Marquee players as present.
This would encourage loyalty by players development of English and cut down influx of 2nd rate international players .
Totally transparency on all players included in cap.

I think this is a very good idea. The one addition could be a rule that prevents clubs poaching from other Academies and stockpiling players that won't be subject to the cap. For example, you can't sign an U20 that's in another Academy unless the player is cut by the incumbent or possibly traded for another prospect.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think there are already rules about signing players from other academies to your academy

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

This is interesting, but I'm not sure why there is an U18 cut-off. Do you genuinely believe that Bristol developed Mako more than Saracens? Or that Dorking/Cambridge developed Kruis or Spencer more than Saracens because both joined us when they were 18? Or that Saracens developed Piers Francis more than Auckland or the Blues? There has to be an element of reasonable logic applied, it's obviously not binary.

Also your obvious biases are plainly exposed by attributing Spencer and Kruis' development to other clubs whilst keeping Slade and Nowell at Exeter. For McConnochie you've put Sevens, but he didn't play Sevens until he was 24 so he couldn't possibly have developed as a player in that environment, no it has to be Cranbrook School that take the credit for his development, because that was where he was when he was U18...

I get it - you hate Saracens. But try removing blatant bias from your argument. It's freeing.

U18 cut off because that's when the home grown academy credits is cut off.

But yeh it's because of the bias....

On Slade and Nowell it's because when looking into it apparently they had a dual contract thingy at the time so wasn't sure if on it.
I'll change McConnochie for you though.

I do think the English team is worst for this but at the same time what relevance does it have? Sarries fans keep dangling England but who know what else might have happened. Would Itoje have never reached his level at another club (Could that club have gotten better for having Itoje in it?) Do players have to be at Saracens to reach their peak for England?

No question Sarries have developed them what irks me the most is statements like Nigel Wrays that seem to act like Sarries should be above the rules of the PRL because of the greatest Sarries has helped England produce.


If I really hated Saracens I would be saying they should be relegated and stripped of their ***les.
TBH I don't agree with either. 1. Mainly because I do think the league should be ring fenced, 2. 35 points is enough, 3. I don't know stripping a club of it's ***le when club rugby is still pretty small feels like it would do more harm to the image than good.

 

[Jimbo]

Premiership 2019/2020 now appears to be over let's face it, it was a two horse race, may as well hand the trophy over to the chiefs now.

I do hope all other clubs are going to be inspected closely, this does appear to be a witch hunt, if Sarries had not been so successful, I doubt this would have been investigated.

I couldn't agree more Sarries are the only club that benefits the national team on mass, I think Wray has every right to throw that in.

 

[Scotty]

Premiership 2019/2020 now appears to be over let's face it, it was a two horse race, may as well hand the trophy over to the chiefs now.

I do hope all other clubs are going to be inspected closely, this does appear to be a witch hunt, if Sarries had not been so successful, I doubt this would have been investigated.

I couldn't agree more Sarries are the only club that benefits the national team on mass, I think Wray has every right to throw that in.

Except chiefs have been no where near their form and saints are looking strong without the likes of Reinach, lawes, Francais, bigger, Mitchell.

Maybe if chiefs get. hepburn(moon) LCD(yendle) williams(francais) hill skinner(vermeulen) ewers kvesic(armand) simmonds white(maunder) JSimmonds(steeno) O'flaherty devoto, slade Nowell(woodburn) Hogg all fit. Then we will be back up to top form.

No doubt Chiefs will move to favourites on paper. But is definitly not a done deal by any stretch. And im liking watching Saints this year.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think the league will really level off come the new year.

Could see alot of clubs being close to the top 2.

 

[Jimbo]

Except chiefs have been no where near their form and saints are looking strong without the likes of Reinach, lawes, Francais, bigger, Mitchell.

Maybe if chiefs get. hepburn(moon) LCD(yendle) williams(francais) hill skinner(vermeulen) ewers kvesic(armand) simmonds white(maunder) JSimmonds(steeno) O'flaherty devoto, slade Nowell(woodburn) Hogg all fit. Then we will be back up to top form.

No doubt Chiefs will move to favourites on paper. But is definitly not a done deal by any stretch. And im liking watching Saints this year.

I agree saints have been looking very tasty not only with the results but highly entertaining, last 3 or 4 seasons have been between Sarries and Exeter with Wasps competing less recently, whilst Exeter are not there now I have no doubt they will be come end of season, for me Sarries and chiefs coasted their semis barely getting out of third gear, I don't think the gap has closed, be interesting to see.

 

[Chief Pete]

if Sarries had not been so successful, I doubt this would have been investigated

Not being funny fella but they've been successful because they've cheated, if they hadn't of cheated then they wouldn't have been so successful and therefore wouldn't be getting investigated, so not sure of the witch hunt tag...

 

[Rinkadink]

Do you genuinely believe that Bristol developed Mako more than Saracens?

Hell yes. He turned out for the Bristol area combination clubs whilst learning and was called up to England within a year of signing for Sarries.

Do you genuinely believe that Sarries did more in mere months for his development or was the main done at Bristol and elsewhere over the years, even Welsh age group clubs?

Had Sarries not cheated could they even have poached Mako (and others) in the first place? The punishment is very lenient.

 

[Rinkadink]

Premiership 2019/2020 now appears to be over let's face it, it was a two horse race, may as well hand the trophy over to the chiefs now.

Not sure about that, a number of teams will now be eyeing top 4 and Exeter haven't looked as strong so far this year (they will improve though). The league is potentially winnable by several clubs and it would be too bold to predict a winner at this stage.