[RWC2023] South Africa vs Ireland (23/09/2023)

[die_mole]

talking geopolitics in a match thread going as hard as they can

 

[munstermuffin]

But that is not the point, at least not the main one. The point is you are held to a different standard than the rest. The argument I am presenting is not that what you are doing is intrinsically wrong (happy to discuss this later). It is that you are allowed to do so while the rest is not. We cannot field Uruguayan, Paraguayan, Bolivian or Brazilian players just because long ago they all belonged to the same national entity.

I can understand you disagreeing with me. I find it very difficult to understand how you do not see my side of the argument.

Well not really as the Island of Ireland rugby predates the divide like even when we were ruled by the Royal Empire it was still the island of Ireland. So it not a like for like as in we always have been the same jurisdiction and nothing changed dispite the Republic commencing

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Well not really as the Island of Ireland rugby predates the divide like even when we were ruled by the Royal Empire it was still the island of Ireland. So it not a like for like as in we always have been the same jurisdiction and nothing changed dispite the Republic commencing

That is like saying that because Yugoslavia's national football team predated the latest independence/establishment of Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, etc then they should all be allowed to present a unified team and FIFA should be ok with it. .

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Was there any rugby on yesterday?

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Was there any rugby on yesterday?

Little bit. Waste of time watching it, it was rubbish

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

What are the Maths and outcomes for us to not get out the pool now? We better put a score on

Will be watching the Scotland Tonga match but even as is there are a couple of upsets that would have to occur to rule us out.

 

[munstermuffin]

That is like saying that because Yugoslavia's national football team predated the latest independence/establishment of Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, etc then they should all be allowed to present a unified team and FIFA should be ok with it. .

No it actually is nothing like that. Sure in rugby terms Ireland was always seen as an Island. And nothing has changed in that sense. In the eyes of rugby to this day it is still only recognised as an Island. Still not getting your point. All those nations chose to disband in soccer when their independence occurred. Northern Ireland to this day nor Republic Of Ireland doesn't have a rugby jurisdiction so again you aren't making sense or obviously don't know your history on it. Like not sure on your point. If it is a "unified Ireland issue" then you are saying just halft the ulster team be excluded from international rugby. Iain Henderson has relations in Monaghan. So effectively in yesterdays 23 or the bigger squad you are saying McCloskey shouldn't be in squad yes?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Aki with a Garland of flowers, just like a normal Connacht home win against Zebre on a rainy Saturday in Galway.

Ireland stars celebrate with wives, girlfriends and kids after South Africa win

Ireland stamped their credentials as Rugby World Cup contenders by beating defending champions South Africa in Paris

www.irishmirror.ie

I don't think we will see a complacent slump from Ireland in the first half against Scotland, I was merely defending my prediction that Ireland would win and get a bit excitable about it. Sport is littered with teams who get jolly a bit early then underachieving, but its not like Irish players or coaches appear to be going all bragadocio in the media.

Anyway, the main finding of fhe post match celebration is Sexton has a kid called Luca. Is he Italian qualified?

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

Let's talk about the rugby guys

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

No it actually is nothing like that. Sure in rugby terms Ireland was always seen as an Island. And nothing has changed in that sense. In the eyes of rugby to this day it is still only recognised as an Island.

So.... you are advocating for a sport today to adjust it's selection process to the boundaries it had in the past... again, Yugoslavia.

All those nations chose to disband in soccer when their independence occurred.

Absolutely not true. They never had the option to continue playing as Yugoslavia after they split. That is precisely my point. Neither had Czech Republic.
Let me see if this way i can express myself more eloquently


Your argument
Ireland played as an island ---> jurisdictional split into ROI and NI ---->They still get to play together as an island

My counterexample
Yugoslavia played together ----> jurisdictional split ----> they DO NOT get to play together anymore

I am using Yugoslavia as an example, but history has tons of these. USSR, Sudan, Czechoslovakia... the list is not small. Ireland's case, which you keep using as the rationale for playing together, is the exception, not the rule. And the reason is quite simple and straightforward: national teams represent, overwhelmingly, what the countries/nation/states are TODAY, not what they were in the past.

 

[IT157]

To the surprise of no one, Pollard will start against Tonga

SA's Pollard to start against Tonga, says Erasmus

Handre Pollard will play for South Africa against Tonga in their final World Cup pool game, says director of Springbok rugby Rassie Erasmus.

www.bbc.com

 

[unrated]

Official comments by Rassie via SA Rugby website

"
"When number one in the world plays number two, the game is going to be decided by a margin of one of two or three points played in a really intense Test match atmosphere," he said, "and I don't think they converted more chances than we did – they just kicked two more penalties than us.

"A good team like Ireland, New Zealand or France are going to keep you out – like we did to Ireland – so converting chances is not easy. They scored one try and we scored one try; it was clear that our problem was that we didn't convert our goal kicks."

"Handre Pollard is not superman and can't come back as fully ready after playing only 30 minutes of rugby since his injury.

"He can't just come onto the field to kick goals, he must also be able to sidestep, hand-off, make tackles, clean out at the ruck and that's obviously not the case now because he has only had a full week's training with us.

"That's why he wasn't up for selection for the squad in the first place, but he is definitely up for selection this week.

"Let's give Handre a chance to find his rhythm and see how he does with the other stuff. Tonga will be a great yardstick to see how he goes."

On Manie Libbok
"Manie is definitely playing brilliant flyhalf rugby at this stage but obviously his goalkicking isn't matching that," said Erasmus."

"If you weigh up the different things he does, he makes a great contribution to the team, but he is in a bit of a dip with his goalkicking – he knows it, we know it and the world knows it."

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm in shock, that's an entire statement from Rassie, that is entirely reasonable.
What's happened to him?

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I'm in shock, that's an entire statement from Rassie, that is entirely reasonable.
What's happened to him?

Ghostwritten?

 

[Leinster Fan]

I can understand you disagreeing with me. I find it very difficult to understand how you do not see my side of the argument.

To be honest I don't even know what your side of the argument is.

Are you saying that Ireland shouldn't be an all-Ireland rugby team or not? If so, come out and say that instead of pontificating about it in the wishy-washy way you are currently, because the discussion has been curtailed a bit due to it not being clear whether you actually think that or not. If not, it raises the question of why you've raised it as a discussion point at all?

Either way, you're definitely talking about it in the wrong thread. If you feel so strongly about it, start a dedicated thread about it instead of distracting from yesterday's match, which is completely irrelevant to this. It's a very complicated and divisive geopolitical discussion and it deserves it's own thread if you REALLY want to talk about it.

 

[munstermuffin]

So.... you are advocating for a sport today to adjust it's selection process to the boundaries it had in the past... again, Yugoslavia.

Absolutely not true. They never had the option to continue playing as Yugoslavia after they split. That is precisely my point. Neither had Czech Republic.
Let me see if this way i can express myself more eloquently


Your argument
Ireland played as an island ---> jurisdictional split into ROI and NI ---->They still get to play together as an island

My counterexample
Yugoslavia played together ----> jurisdictional split ----> they DO NOT get to play together anymore

I am using Yugoslavia as an example, but history has tons of these. USSR, Sudan, Czechoslovakia... the list is not small. Ireland's case, which you keep using as the rationale for playing together, is the exception, not the rule. And the reason is quite simple and straightforward: national teams represent, overwhelmingly, what the countries/nation/states are TODAY, not what they were in the past.

But why would Ireland split?? Brcause of a religious issue. Are you sayong so Stuart McCloskey should not be there or is there other players I am missing?
Ireland is an Island and has never been treated any differently. Soccer is vastly different in eligibility rules also. But Mark Cavendish rides for the UK in cycling. You disagree with this?
Puerto Rico and US intertwine based on political side.
Do you believe so France and Spain should eventually split to if Basque authority is given some jurisdiction.
Like I'm still not getting how you think Ireland Rugby (the Island) gets special treatment. As I said effectively every player is eligible for Republic regardless.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

I may be wrong but it the final is only when they can meet again

According the draw schedule on the RWC website, Semis are the latest they can meet again

 

[die_mole]

According the draw schedule on the RWC website, Semis are the latest they can meet again

How?
it's impossible for teams from the same pool to meet before the final.

Matches | Rugby World Cup 2023

Official fixtures and results page for Rugby World Cup 2023 in France.

www.rugbyworldcup.com

 

[Which Tyler]

According the draw schedule on the RWC website, Semis are the latest they can meet again

Errr... you might want to check that again

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Ok, i tried being nice and this is what i got...

To be honest I don't even know what your side of the argument is.

Then get that foot out of your mouth and ask. Dont be shy.

Are you saying that Ireland shouldn't be an all-Ireland rugby team or not?

I've got mixed feelings but leaning toward letting them stay as it is (not that i've got a vote or anything).

because the discussion has been curtailed a bit due to it not being clear whether you actually think that or not.

OK, i'll ltry to spell it out then.
What part of the following below wasn't clear?

The argument I am presenting is not that what you are doing is intrinsically wrong (happy to discuss this later). It is that you are allowed to do so while the rest is not.

You have the right to do something that no other side in the world cup is allowed to do. NOT ONE. And that thing is objectively advantageous. These are not opinions, these are facts.
The dictionary defines that as a privilege. To the t. Again, fact, not some obscure and twisted interpretation. It literally means that.
So when someone says something along the lines of "Irish lions" (other poster's words but it is what triggered this entire thing) have the common sense and decency to understand that he does have a point, whether you like it or not. Aknowledging its existence would be a start.
When you have a privilege and someone points it out, pretending it doesn't exist generally doesn't work. Rationalizing it and arguing you and you alone should have it tends to backfire too, particularly when the list of counterexamples against it is endless.

instead of pontificating about it in the wishy-washy way you are currently,

That was my **** poor attempt at being nice. Since i believe this could be a touchy subject for some of you i thought going head-in wasn't the most amicable approach, so i tried to be polite instead and that lead me to use poor euphemisms and avoiding calling a spade a spade. My mistake. Apologies. But since you want no subtleties here's the plain english version: i went wishy-washy because your refusal to acknowledge straight undeniable facts strongly suggested these could hurt you went confronted with them and i was trying to protect your snowflakie arse. Your team has a privilege that no other team in the tournament has access to and when someone present those facts some people like you deny it, excuse it or appear to be offended. Clear enough?

You wanna have that privilege? Fine. You want to call it a right and pretend you've earned it? Sure, call it Lord Ian Robespiere of Montagne if it makes you feel any better. But don't expect the rest of us to pretend that the big orange elephant in the room is just an inconspicuous and sutil lamp in the corner that no one notices. Everybody does. Not everyone cares too much (counterintuively, i dont) but not caring about something doesnt mean you dont recognize it's existence when asked point blank.