[RWC2023] South Africa vs Ireland (23/09/2023)

[Brigantine]

Seen this doing the rounds on social media,
In the spirit of the benefit of the doubt I think it's accidental (though it does kinda look like a press down after the initial step) but a lot of people are very angry - citing incoming?

The way he's looking around like a lost puppy... If he tried to do it deliberately he probably would've missed. With the camera angle it's subtle to tell that he never looked there at all. Moving his foot naturally as he turns around, no ill will but definitely stupid and clumsy.

I heard the carry on about it watching live, good to see an actual video of it and know what it was about
From the perspective of the man in the ruck, you'd definitely want it checked, so no criticism there.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Only if they hold ROI's passports/nationality. Still, my point was not who they chose to represent. My point is that it is one of the very few instances where two sovereign nations can join forces and compete in international competitions against other sovereign nations who themselves arent allowed to combine players from others (few hiccups here and there but the laws are relatively clear).
Argentina and Uruguay can't call themselves River Plate combo and tell FIFA they'll be fielding a united team.

Which is virtually everyone who was born in Northern Ireland.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Which is virtually everyone who was born in Northern Ireland.

But that is not the point. I have 5 passports yet i cannot represent a team at the world cup that is a combination of those 5 countries!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But that is not the point. I have 5 passports yet i cannot represent a team at the world cup that is a combination of those 5 countries!

This really isn't one to argue Cruz. It's essentially a contested territory.

Would you deny an Argentine from las Malvinas the chance to represent the pumas.

 

[munstermuffin]

Only if they hold ROI's passports/nationality. Still, my point was not who they chose to represent. My point is that it is one of the very few instances where two sovereign nations can join forces and compete in international competitions against other sovereign nations who themselves arent allowed to combine players from others (few hiccups here and there but the laws are relatively clear).
Argentina and Uruguay can't call themselves River Plate combo and tell FIFA they'll be fielding a united team.

That is incorrect in the passport comments. The IRFU is set up as the island of Ireland not the republic. GUI (Golf body), Hockey and few others are set the same way. If you are from Northern Ireland you can't represent GB in Olympics for example.
But not really combining anything as it is from grassroots up so all they know

 

[ncurd]

This really isn't one to argue Cruz. It's essentially a contested territory.

Would you deny an Argentine from las Malvinas the chance to represent the pumas.

Also there's the GFA which I know existed after the Irish rugby teams. But it essentially allows anyone in NI to claim Irish nationality. So anyone born there is eligible for any ROI team.

Plus Wales/Scotland/England aren't sovereign nations either but have a unique place in sport (and other places as well) where they are allowed to compete as separate nationns as they invented international sport by essentially playing each other.

In Cricket England are actually England and Wales. And we're allowed to poach anyone from a non test playing nation if they want (so all Scottish and one upon a time Irish player play for England).

So the argument if for a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland team. We'd lose two tier 1 nations and break up another. I'm sure that'll be great for the sport....

 

[ncurd]

If you are from Northern Ireland you can't represent GB in Olympics for example.

Absolutely incorrect, remember Rory McIlroy had to decide who he wanted to declare for.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Fair question. I dont think the answer is that straightforward tho.

Would you deny an Argentine from las Malvinas the chance to represent the pumas.

If he had a British Passport and no Argentine one? Then yes, i would deny him the chance. And that is how it actually works.

Someone born in Malvinas/Falkl holding a british passport and only a british passport cannot play for Argentina at the rugby world cup.
A northern Irish citizen holding a British passport and only a British passport can play for Ireland at the rugby world cup.

Those two cases are not the same.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Proper test match. Ireland showed their form and their class. South Africa were guilty of various basic errors.

 

[Becca]

Enjoyable game. Sore bodies on both sides today I should imagine.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

That is incorrect in the passport comments. The IRFU is set up as the island of Ireland not the republic. GUI (Golf body), Hockey and few others are set the same way. If you are from Northern Ireland you can't represent GB in Olympics for example.

I took it for granted we were talking about team sports (the idea of representing a country is not the same in individual sports) but i did not clarify that so that's on me, apologies.
Happy to concede hockey, which i mentioned earlier.

if you are from Northern Ireland you can't represent GB in Olympics for example.

From teamgb.com



10 sec google yielded this

'Officially, the team is the "Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team", although athletes from Northern Ireland, depending on the sport, are either forced or may opt to compete under the auspices of the Olympic Federation of Ireland instead.'

So i guess it is case-specific. Correct me if i'm wrong.

But not really combining anything as it is from grassroots up so all they know

Name one nation being represented in the RWC that enjoys the same treatment.
Just one.

I believe I understand why you see it the way you do, and i am trying to empathize, i really am, but do you understand how this comes across to people who were not born and raised there and who do not get to choose that?

Try explaining to a Uruguayan, a Bangladeshi or a Polish that the same person with only one passport can represent Ireland in Rugby Union, Northern Ireland in Footie and team GB at shooting at the Olympic games.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

That is incorrect in the passport comments. The IRFU is set up as the island of Ireland not the republic. GUI (Golf body), Hockey and few others are set the same way. If you are from Northern Ireland you can't represent GB in Olympics for example.
But not really combining anything as it is from grassroots up so all they know

Maybe not in Rugby sevens but you can in other sports. There have been many Nothern Irish members of team GB over the years. At the last Olympics two members of the GB's men's hockey squad were Northern Irish.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Fair question. I dont think the answer is that straightforward tho.


If he had a British Passport and no Argentine one? Then yes, i would deny him the chance. And that is how it actually works.

Someone born in Malvinas/Falkl holding a british passport and only a british passport cannot play for Argentina at the rugby world cup.
A northern Irish citizen holding a British passport and only a British passport can play for Ireland at the rugby world cup.

Those two cases are not the same.

I did specify Argentine for a reason. It's a birth right as someone born on the island of Ireland to be Irish, no argument there. It's a contested territory, a relic of British partition. But constitutionally everyone born in the six counties is Irish and British. If you have an issue with the Irish rugby team it extends to the English, Welsh and Scottish teams (actually more of an argument for Ireland to be a team than those tbh).

 

[Duct Tape]

Enjoyable game. Sore bodies on both sides today I should imagine.

Don't try to derail the other ongoing topics!!! . Seriously?

 

[munstermuffin]

Absolutely incorrect, remember Rory McIlroy had to decide who he wanted to declare for.

Yes as golf is an individual sport and he plays under Northern Ireland flag which is different to rugby. McIlroy is british but chose Ireland as he came through GUI system

 

[munstermuffin]

Maybe not in Rugby sevens but you can in other sports. There have been many Nothern Irish members of team GB over the years. At the last Olympics two members of the GB's men's hockey squad were Northern Irish.

Yes but that is vecause they came through
NI programmes.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Yes as golf is an individual sport and he plays under Northern Ireland flag which is different to rugby. McIlroy is british but chose Ireland as he came through GUI system

Identity is a big factor as well. A hardline unionist wouldn't play for a Republic of Ireland team.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Don't think there is much debate here tbh, it is what it is. Britain legitimised a counter culture to save face. The state of Ireland now is transitional, in no way prosperous for those in the 6 but safe. The rugby team is an example of unity and should be celebrated, not criticised.

 

[munstermuffin]

Name 1

I took it for granted we were talking about team sports (the idea of representing a country is not the same in individual sports) but i did not clarify that so that's on me, apologies.
Happy to concede hockey, which i mentioned earlier.



From teamgb.com

View attachment 17872

10 sec google yielded this

'Officially, the team is the "Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team", although athletes from Northern Ireland, depending on the sport, are either forced or may opt to compete under the auspices of the Olympic Federation of Ireland instead.'

So i guess it is case-specific. Correct me if i'm wrong.


Name one nation being represented in the RWC that enjoys the same treatment.
Just one.

I believe I understand why you see it the way you do, and i am trying to empathize, i really am, but do you understand how this comes across to people who were not born and raised there and who do not get to choose that?

Try explaining to a Uruguayan, a Bangladeshi or a Polish that the same person with only one passport can represent Ireland in Rugby Union, Northern Ireland in Footie and team GB at shooting at the Olympic games.

Identity is a big factor as well. A hardline unionist wouldn't play for a Republic of Ireland team.

True but for rugby we aren't the Republic we are the island.
Like Rory Best would be hardline unionist in sense he is British more than Irish but would never play for England say

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

True but for rugby we aren't the Republic we are the island.

But that is not the point, at least not the main one. The point is you are held to a different standard than the rest. The argument I am presenting is not that what you are doing is intrinsically wrong (happy to discuss this later). It is that you are allowed to do so while the rest is not. We cannot field Uruguayan, Paraguayan, Bolivian or Brazilian players just because long ago they all belonged to the same national entity.

I can understand you disagreeing with me. I find it very difficult to understand how you do not see my side of the argument.