[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[Jer1cho]

I may well just post the same thing as I did before. as I don't feel you've properly addressed any of it

Your idea of a justice system troubles me - they have presented evidence, and they think it is good enough. WR have decided they don't think its conclusive. Ok fine. But this idea that the burden is on the person making allegations to either provide proof beyond all reasonable doubt or else not say anything is wrong or troubling. As I said before, it's not Tom Curry or the RFUs job to have all parts of the pitch mic'd up to protect players against discrimination.

Defamation also doesn't work in the way you are suggesting, it is hard to prove, and especially when those making allegations have provided evidence that they believe in. Would you feel more better about this if they had inserted 'Tom Curry believes' he experienced racial abuse? Ok, but I'm not sure why you are choosing to focus on defamation and personally I have zero confidence that would you be taking this position if roles were reversed in this incident.

To be clear, I don't even have an opinion one way or another on what took place but your idea of how this should work is just plain wrong to me.

We will disagree then.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Well for started despite being written similarly wyd kant and what was allegedly said sound nothing alike and its not like Curry doesn't have experience with the SA accent. Like go record yourself saying both sets of words and ask yourself if you could be genuinely mistaken between the two.

Its an off the ball incident when it goes out of play.

Its quite close. I can very easily understand a non-native mishearing. Still find it bizarre. But I think its pointless discussing as with what is known SA fans will be adamant of Bongi's innocence and English fans will believe Curry. Both have pretty good records and with a lack of anything else that can be confirmed coming out I for one will choose to believe at this stage that its a case of mishearing on behalf of Curry. Think the best stance to take is Bongi is innocent until proven otherwise and give Curry the benefit of the doubt as well.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Its quite close. I can very easily understand a non-native mishearing. Still find it bizarre. But I think its pointless discussing as with what is known SA fans will be adamant of Bongi's innocence and English fans will believe Curry. Both have pretty good records and with a lack of anything else that can be confirmed coming out I for one will choose to believe at this stage that its a case of mishearing on behalf of Curry. Think the best stance to take is Bongi is innocent until proven otherwise and give Curry the benefit of the doubt as well.

Sure but that's not even what we're saying here - just that you have a right to make allegations and continue to believe them even if evidence is found to be inconclusive. It reminds me of this growing anti-democratic thing in some countries, including UK after Brexit, where some people seem to think winning an election means the other side have to shut up. It's just not how it works.

Could the RFU have said "Tom curry believes he experienced racial abuse..."?. But imagine you believe you have been abused and your employer puts out a wishy washy statement saying "Tom alleges he experienced this...." Would you feel supported in any way?
I say this with no fondness for the RFU, but they are acting with the responsibility they presumably feel they have to a player.

 

[ncurd]

Its quite close. I can very easily understand a non-native mishearing. Still find it bizarre. But I think its pointless discussing as with what is known SA fans will be adamant of Bongi's innocence and English fans will believe Curry. Both have pretty good records and with a lack of anything else that can be confirmed coming out I for one will choose to believe at this stage that its a case of mishearing on behalf of Curry. Think the best stance to take is Bongi is innocent until proven otherwise and give Curry the benefit of the doubt as well.

Its is pretty much where I stand other Currys benefit of the doubt has to be implicit from the second he made the allegation.

My ire is on WR who haven't held a disciplinary hearing, published their finding or even stated what allegedly occurred and when. And I think that's England rugby's anger by that statement as well.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Defining defamation of character - It can manifest in two forms: libel, which refers to written or printed defamatory statements, and slander, which pertains to spoken or oral defamatory statements. Whether intentional or not, defamation can have severe consequences for both the victim and the person responsible.

defamatory -
(of remarks, writing, etc.) damaging the good reputation of someone; slanderous or libellous.
"a defamatory allegation"

Im not talking laws, Mr Genius. I said, CHARACTER DEFAMATION.

Try harder.

you did actually say the RFU must have pretty good lawyers to put out this statement....so you are talking about the law here

 

[Jer1cho]

you did actually say the RFU must have pretty good lawyers to put out this statement....so you are talking about the law here

I forgot about that I guess I did. It works so differently in this country than the rest of the world. To me this all seems a case of no one is wrong and no one is right. It's just such a pity it blew up the way it did. Also unfortunate it was SA involved, because we have rabbid dog fans who are easily the worst in the world. I don't quite know if anything in this whole situation was gone about correctly. It's the 'racist' angle, else it would all be a nothing. Dane Coles called Sexton a mouthy c*nt to the ref and that was fine. Marler fondles balls and called someone a gypsy and it was banhammer. Maybe WR need to set up some sort of guidelines, or laws for the ref regarding this type of on field sledging?

 

[Which Tyler]

I dont think you quite understand the magnitude of accusing someone of racial abuse. Especially in the context of South Africa.

Do you want to have a word with TRF_Stormer then, who posted this?

Why? Innocent until proven guilty unless you're what? South African? Black?

Accusing a hypothetical future crowd of being racist (whilst also confusing a rugby stadium for a court of law).
IIRC TRF_Ezequiel also agreed that the future crowd was racist.


FTR: I have no comment on the incident itself because I haven't seen/heard any recording of the incident itself. WR needed to investigate it properly though, not just sweep it under the carpet as if it was a dangerous head-contact.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

World Rugby are idiots, and if they say no sufficient evidence, then everybody has to abide by it, even if they are still idiots.

 

[ncurd]

World Rugby are idiots, and if they say no sufficient evidence, then everybody has to abide by it, even if they are still idiots.

I don't think this is the end of it, I'm expected an official complaint from the RFU into WR disciplinary proceedings over this. Just the tone of their statement suggest its forthcoming.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

And Borthwick has now been scathing of how WR handled it.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67223507.amp

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

"I have spoken to him, I sent him a message," Kolisi said.
"He is someone I respect. We can take it as players. When it comes to you, it's fine, but when families are involved, it's different.
"I have let him know we are supporting him and are thinking of him."

I know I'm very far from being the first person to say it but Kolisi is just painfully classy.

 

[BrokenWing]

"I have spoken to him, I sent him a message," Kolisi said.

If only he knew Mbonambi too, and could explain to Tom that it was just a misunderstanding... If only....

 

[ncurd]

If only he knew Mbonambi too, and could explain to Tom that it was just a misunderstanding... If only....

Does Kolsi even know what allegedly happened? Does Bongi?

All we know is they received written statements from both Unions they did and investigation couldn't find any evidence. The RFU are certainly suggesting, zero follow up was made with them or their players.

 

[Reiser99]

Tbh that's possibly the worst outcome in terms of stopping the abuse as those who think Mbonambi did it will say he got away with it and those who think Curry is slandering him will say this is proof of that. It resolves nothing, but if there is no evidence then there is not much anyone can do.

It's hard being right all the time.

 

[BrokenWing]

Does Kolsi even know what allegedly happened? Does Bongi?

All we know is they received written statements from both Unions they did and investigation couldn't find any evidence. The RFU are certainly suggesting, zero follow up was made with them or their players.

With the amount of South Africans foaming at the mouth on social media that someone had the temerity to accuse of of their team, you would have thought one of them might have heard something about it.

I suppose they might have more pressing things to concentrate on. Can't think of anything offhand, but you never know.

 

[Yulia]

I think that expressions like "wyd kant/vid kant" and even the word "kant" should be prohibited then in international games. To avoid any situation like that in the future (and to avoid a situation where the player insults someone knowing he can later say it was just an expression in his native language)

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Strange to read just how hacked off the English union are. I don't think speaking to Curry was going to bring anything new to the table in terms of actual evidence that could make WR take any alternative action. We saw when Curry reported it and WR have the audio for the period prior to that. It appears none of his teammates came forward to corroborate this or I think the English union would be alluding to that in their statements.

It also appears nobody can verify Curry's initial instance of alleged abuse back in November 2022 (he really should have reported it at the time rather than this apparently being a revelation to the English union), as again I think the English union would be alluding to that in their statements. I'm not saying anything against Curry really, its just unfortunate all round.

I get the impression the English anger is magnified by the Farrell suspension mess. They will say why is Bongi allowed a formal decision without a full enquiry but Farrell was not (not an argument I would agree with).

Bongi could be doing a repeated malicious prank (in Afrikaans) but he would be risking one heck of a backlash from any of his teammates that overheard it. I have also never seen him look emotional, hotheaded or angry on the field really. He's no Eztebeth or Farrell in temperament. So generally I've no beef with Bongi, Curry, WR or either of the unions. Life goes on.

The clear solution is that the Boks use Xhosa for code instead of Afrikaans.

 

[AlRums]

I think that expressions like "wyd kant/vid kant" and even the word "kant" should be prohibited then in international games. To avoid any situation like that in the future (and to avoid a situation where the player insults someone knowing he can later say it was just an expression in his native language)

Are you seriously suggesting that players should be banned from saying words in their own language just because English speakers could mishear them?

Now that would be racist

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

"I have spoken to him, I sent him a message," Kolisi said.
"He is someone I respect. We can take it as players. When it comes to you, it's fine, but when families are involved, it's different.
"I have let him know we are supporting him and are thinking of him."

I know I'm very far from being the first person to say it but Kolisi is just painfully classy.

And I'm sure the sentiments would have been genuinely meant. Kolisi's savvy, would be interested to know if he made any attempt to explain or pour oil on troubled waters too.

 

[Yulia]

Are you seriously suggesting that players should be banned from saying words in their own language just because English speakers could mishear them?

Now that would be racist

No, I offered how to resolve such a case in the future. If it causes mutual accusations, death threats to players and their families then...why not to replace those words for something else.
And,by the way,is the referee obliged to speak French/German/Afrikaans/any other foreign language except English in the international game? I guess he's not. And we won't call him a racist who makes all the team members to speak him only in English instead of "saying words in their own language", right? But I didn't even offer to make foreign teams to use only English on the field in international matches,just to replace 1-2 words "controversially sounding" words