[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[pagliaccio_euforico]

How many South African game threads are gonna get locked in a row?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm still inclined to think it was a simple misunderstanding but the handling of it has been an absolute shitshow.

1) The ref should not have so casually dismissed it when the accusation was first raised. It should have been settled then and I think it's unlikely Mbonambi couldn't have come up with a suitable cover story on the spot for what it could have been in Afrikaans if asked at the time, unless it was pre-meditated.
2) The initial apparent apathy of WR towards the issue and again lack of clarification has only enflamed the issue
3) The continued apparent disregard for a proper investigation when you feel it would not have been the same had the situation been reversed leaves a bad taste
4) The reaction by the RFU and Curry saying this has happened before is unusual and suggests there is something more to this that has not been made public. If this is the case, it makes point 3 even more serious. Given this would also be coming off the back of an unprecedented WR intervention against England to get Farrell's card changed, it's not a good look.

The only thing that makes me think there is something more to it is how strongly worded the RFU response has been, it took me by surprise. If you have an accusation and a lack of evidence, you'd normally just accept it unfortunately. It comes across like there is further context or evidence WR are refusing to listen to. I don't know what Mbonambi is like but it's perfectly possible that an otherwise reasonable person could have a seething hatred of another and act differently around them.

The other thing that makes me think this is a misunderstanding though is Mbonambi could get in so much **** within his own team if the accusation is true. South Africa are not a black team and, as our SA posters have highlighted, racism is a particularly sensitive topic in SA. Having said that, to our SA posters, have there not been incidents of anti-white racism by the government in SA which have been completely ignored, even supported by sizeable chunks of the population? Is the sensitivity to racist comments equal both ways?

 

[Jer1cho]

Completely agree the ref stuffed that one up. Curry had a concern. Ref said do nothing. He could have called the teams then and there and given the sternest of warnings. Really was a cop out from him to just tell Curry do nothing, I'm on it, then o keef does nothing.

The race thing in SA is a huge discussion. One not meant for a rugby forum. It is very hard for us to accept Bongi guilty of racism. If you know the team and culture, you would think it impossible. Even though it obviously isn't.

 

[McTallshort]

Didn't realise it had happened last Autumn as well.

 

[Jimbo]

Bongi's attitude on this has done him no favours at all, unless he legitimately believes Curry has raised it purely out of spite with pure Malice there is little reason not to shake his hand post game and put it to be with an explanation of miss interpretations.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Completely agree the ref stuffed that one up. Curry had a concern. Ref said do nothing. He could have called the teams then and there and given the sternest of warnings. Really was a cop out from him to just tell Curry do nothing, I'm on it, then o keef does nothing.

Didn't he say "I'll deal with it", or "leave it to me"? I guess he could argue that putting it in his referee's report was his version of dealing with it, but I agree with the criticism above of his handling of it.

 

[Derpus]

Tbh that's possibly the worst outcome in terms of stopping the abuse as those who think Mbonambi did it will say he got away with it and those who think Curry is slandering him will say this is proof of that. It resolves nothing, but if there is no evidence then there is not much anyone can do.

Nah this is just good seasoning. Make the final a little spicier.

 

[Which Tyler]

Apologies if I'm late with this one

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

That is revolting. I trust its just muppets venting and not anything anyone needs to pay any mind too. I heard Reinach and his family got as well. Again, there I didn't believe the person had actual intent. Still, you don't want to hear it and the recievers can't not take it seriously. That's two in 1 tournament whereas i can't remember any in any otehr RWC. Maybe I'm just more exposed this time.

The problem with death threats is that while most of them are empty threats and never amount to anything, you just cannot take the risk to ignore a threat like this. Because you end up ignoring the one threat that is real.

Curry having to deal with this now is terrible. He doesn't deserve this. Social Media has turned society into a braindead entity that only judges situations in 2 extremes. There's never room for nuance anymore. Mbonambi not saying something racist doesn't mean Curry was the bad guy in this either. There's a perfectly reasonable explanation where Curry heard something, interpreted it as a racial slur while it not being one, and acting on it the way we all would. But that possibility completely escapes the mouth-breathing idiots who send death threats to athletes.

 

[retired9]

Bongi's attitude on this has done him no favours at all, unless he legitimately believes Curry has raised it purely out of spite with pure Malice there is little reason not to shake his hand post game and put it to be with an explanation of miss interpretations.

I think this also, I know that there were probably many people telling him to keep his head down and mouth shut post match when this all would be getting aired.

However:

IF what he said was in Afrikaans, "wid kant" or otherwise, why why why would you not go straight to the referee, the authorities or otherwise and say "This is what I said, this is what it means and this is the context I said it in. I was not aware of the tranlational definition and it was certianly not malicious nor directed at any player in an abusive manner". Offer this explanation, apologise for the misunderstanding and shake hands. This is not apologising for speaking your language of choice, it's basic decency and is the type of behaviour our sport is built on.

Unless there is a particular beef between the 2 players in question I just don't see where Curry would raise this without believing he had grounds to. England is a nation and team of players with all sorts of heritage so to be harbouring a racial prejudice and waiting to use it against an opponent just doesn't hold water IMO.

I hope it's a misunderstanding, there is enough trouble in the world without this. Bongi is a great player and South Africa a proud nation who get united behind rugby like no other, rising above all the challenges they face at home. There has to be better than this, I really hope the Unions find a way to sort this out amicably.


For the record this is in no way an anti SA or pro England post, trying to be subjective as an outsider!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Will they ever let it go?

 

[Becca]

Will they ever let it go?

View attachment 18354

It's ridiculous.

 

[BrokenWing]

Social media is awash with nutcase SA fans demanding Curry apologise.

 

[retired9]

Will they ever let it go?

View attachment 18354

This is how you rile people up. Beginning to feel like this pushing the laws in all areas of the sport needs a heavy clamp down. It's driving behaviour like this which in isolation, may not be terrible, but racism is a problem needing stopped, not fuelled.

 

[ncurd]

Ridiculous you fuel the SA persecution complex but I'm also not looking forward the next Eng/SA at Twickenham. English fans are not exactly the type to not let their displeasure unknown and it could be quite vile and SA are now fueling it.

Could of been completely deescalated at the end of the game if that's what happened and purely put the blame on Bongi for that (he's an adult). Shake Tom's hand, say "hey I think you misunderstood what I said", swap shirts. I only don't blame Tom because after he made the accusation no one decided to talk to him to explain the situation.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Will they ever let it go?

View attachment 18354

It's crap like this that makes me say SA are the most toxic team in world rugby by some distance... It's not just some fans whinging on social media, the very core of the team buys into this. From the coach whinging on social media and slagging off refs to play acting on the field, taking the **** with their use of medics and water carriers, the light system, the whole culture is toxic. You then add the fans on top of that and SA are a pretty unlikeable team.

Your captain is classy though but the rest leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It's crap like this that makes me say SA are the most toxic team in world rugby by some distance... It's not just some fans whinging on social media, the very core of the team buys into this. From the coach whinging on social media and slagging off refs to play acting on the field, taking the **** with their use of medics and water carriers, the light system, the whole culture is toxic. You then add the fans on top of that and SA are a pretty unlikeable team.

Your captain is classy though but the rest leaves a lot to be desired.

Yeah I 100% hate this South Africa, just come across as scummy cheaters. Bongi's behaviour In al of this makes me think he did actually say white **** and meant it. He must be a pretty disgusting person to watch what's gone on with curry and not stand up for him against the death threats etc.

Horrible coach, horrible players and a horrid toxic culture I hope implodes.

 

[West Country Wail]

I love the Boks but have to say I find it very strange this hasn't been settled between the two players

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Tbh Mbonambi taking the **** out of it makes me think he's a dick anyway, especially with what I've heard re his home life.

Even if the actual incident was a misunderstanding, he still seems like an arse.

 

[Jimbo]

Yeah I 100% hate this South Africa, just come across as scummy cheaters. Bongi's behaviour In al of this makes me think he did actually say white **** and meant it. He must be a pretty disgusting person to watch what's gone on with curry and not stand up for him against the death threats etc.

Horrible coach, horrible players and a horrid toxic culture I hope implodes.

Please don't go down this route with scummy cheaters and hate, these are the sort of things that cause falls outs and getting peoples backs up, certain things coming out of SA could be improved massively, the SA posters here are sound and shouldn't be subjected to this.