[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[TRF_stormer2010]

Actually I was thinking about this. Didn't he ref SA Vs Ireland totally differently, penalising the rucks and the breakdowns? I wonder if he'll change style and get super picky just to set up NZ Vs England in the Final?

It won't make up for my disappointment at what happened the past weekend, but it would give me a giggle.

To my mind O'Keefe has been consistant between SA v Ire and SA v Fra in two ways:

- that he lets small things slide at the breakdown, and even bigger things the closer to the end of the match.
- and he backs himself or rather backs away from calls where cards might get issued as often as not.

IE he tries to avoid TMO intervention and a stop-start game- seeing this as the ideal.

TBF for both instances he had received praise in Ire v SA (universally- and here Rassie might've been playing a long game as he was uncharateristically gracious in defeat) and might be why he did same in Fra v SA. It's an open question whether he changes tack on the back of the French backlash or no.

 

[Grizwald]

It's forecast to rain in Paris at the weekend. England need a NZ esque performance and have zero handling errors to avoid too many scrums and alot of other stuff to go their way.....

 

[BPM]

England need a miracle

 

[saulan]

Actually I was thinking about this. Didn't he ref SA Vs Ireland totally differently, penalising the rucks and the breakdowns? I wonder if he'll change style and get super picky just to set up NZ Vs England in the Final?

It won't make up for my disappointment at what happened the past weekend, but it would give me a giggle.

He really didn't ref the ruck area strictly in the SA Ireland game. Generally he let the game flow and didn't call the smaller breakdown infringements. It was the same for SA vs France.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

I have always thought of ABs v Boks as El Classico of Rugby. And We've yet to have a Real Madrid v Barcelona final in the Champions league. It would a be the one that most neutrals will want.

It's the most likely final at this stage. Would an England v Argentina final wet the appetite even more?

I think a lot of fans are just tired of seeing the same teams in the final over and over again.

France is the exception among RWC final apperances because they never won it, I guess.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Smith, May, Manu and Curry all on "modified" training so all presumably carrying knocks of varying degrees.

Also just read that Borthwick hasn't named an unchanged starting XV in his 15 games in charge. Indecisive - I don't know, I mean it might be, it might not be….

Rain's forecast and it's the Boks. Playing anyone other than Steward at FB would be the very definition of insanity.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think a lot of fans are just tired of seeing the same teams in the final over and over again.

France is the exception among RWC final apperances because they never won it, I guess.

If that is to be the final they'll both have come through the tough side of the draw and fully deserve to be in the final. France and Ireland gave it a bloody good rattle but ultimately weren't good enough. Of course we'd like to see the whole tournament get more competitive, but it's up to the rest of the world to get better. It's kind of happening, if slowly - some of the T2 are getting better and, for once, we're surprised that it hasn't been more NH dominated.

Although one or other has been in 6 of the 9 finals to date, they've only actually met once and that was, allegedly, ruined by food poisoning. I'd be perfectly comfortable with this final, both teams would be there on merit and it's one of rugby's classic rivalries.

 

[Horacito]

Hola,
I feel weirdly connected, almost in a cosmic way, to our English frenemies. Connected by the speedolight clash that our collective bums are about to feel. I'm euphoric and equally elegiac.

I'll be sharing our bucket of Vaseline in case it's needed and want to express my feelings of friendship and good will.

God help us

 

[Jer1cho]

I think a lot of fans are just tired of seeing the same teams in the final over and over again.

France is the exception among RWC final apperances because they never won it, I guess.

We only win every 12 years usually this one is a fluke! Makes it worse that England's in the last 4 again probably lol.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Nah, you're not alone. It's a RWC semi. Whoever comes out on top it'll be close I'd imagine.

On a different note. It just struck me that if we somehow managed a ***le here, we'd have a 50% strike rate for RWC ***les. I have a lot of reservations about Rassie but if we manage, probably even if we fall short, you have to give credit for the turnaround he managed. His genius for me lies more in getting the best out of players more so than his in game tactics though he has proved to be astute there as well.

I don't know much about Rassie but listening to the Rugby Pod today they were talking about Rassie apparently picking teams based on "battle stats"? Something about the time taken to make a tangible impact on the game, whether that's slowing down ball, turnover, etc. And apparently Kwagga Smith has the best battle stats. I don't know if this is fully accurate but makes sense to me from what I do know of him. I really like the idea.
And that draws an inevitable comparison to Borthwick - does he have an innovative system for selection akin to that!? I would be shocked.
Saying that, everything is much more data led now so maybe I'd be surprised.

I think a lot of fans are just tired of seeing the same teams in the final over and over again.

France is the exception among RWC final apperances because they never won it, I guess.

It's ridiculous when you think of how few different teams have actually been in finals. England and France may have poor records in finals respectively but the fact that we've had some at all is a measure of success - England in the last 5 cups have been in 3 finals. So it's basically been 5 teams in all the finals. I can definitely understand that fatigue.

Hola,
I feel weirdly connected, almost in a cosmic way, to our English frenemies. Connected by the speedolight clash that our collective bums are about to feel. I'm euphoric and equally elegiac.

I'll be sharing our bucket of Vaseline in case it's needed and want to express my feelings of friendship and good will.

God help us

Well we'll be reunited in the 3rd place decider. How romantic...

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

If that is to be the final they'll both have come through the tough side of the draw and fully deserve to be in the final. France and Ireland gave it a bloody good rattle but ultimately weren't good enough. Of course we'd like to see the whole tournament get more competitive, but it's up to the rest of the world to get better. It's kind of happening, if slowly - some of the T2 are getting better and, for once, we're surprised that it hasn't been more NH dominated.

Although one or other has been in 6 of the 9 finals to date, they've only actually met once and that was, allegedly, ruined by food poisoning. I'd be perfectly comfortable with this final, both teams would be there on merit and it's one of rugby's classic rivalries.

Yeah, I wasn't saying it wasn't deserved if they get to the final. Just that a lot of rugby fans get tired of watching predictable outcomes. The 4 remaining teams combined for the last 5 World Cups dating back to 2003, plus Argentina who have been to semi-finals before but are realistically never going to win.

I would love to see a SA-NZ final. A re-match of 1995 which is one of the most iconic moments in sports in general. But I also understand why people feel differently about this match up.

 

[Nudger]

I've covered this but:
1. Headers
2. Drop goals
3. Players out of position creating confusion in the minds of opposition
5. Getting as many 10s onto the field as possible
It's clearly genius!

The team should an 7,8 split second row and fly half's

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Probable England XV F Steward; J May, J Marchant, M Tuilagi, E Daly; O Farrell, A Mitchell; E Genge, J George, D Cole, M Itoje, O Chessum, C Lawes, T Curry, B Earl.

Per Times online.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

It's ridiculous when you think of how few different teams have actually been in finals. England and France may have poor records in finals respectively but the fact that we've had some at all is a measure of success - England in the last 5 cups have been in 3 finals. So it's basically been 5 teams in all the finals. I can definitely understand that fatigue.

That's exactly the word I was looking for. Fatigue.

Here's an overview of all finals since 1987.

36 years of world cup rugby, and only 5 countries have reached a final.

New Zealand: 3/4
South Africa: 3/3
Australia: 2/4
England: 1/3
France: 0/3

The funny thing is that Argentina made it to more RWC semi finals than Ireland and Scotland combined, and the same amount as Wales, despite being a relatively new Tier 1 nation in the sport.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Probable England XV F Steward; J May, J Marchant, M Tuilagi, E Daly; O Farrell, A Mitchell; E Genge, J George, D Cole, M Itoje, O Chessum, C Lawes, T Curry, B Earl.

Per Times online.

Seen on twitter that they're considering both Ford and Smith on the bench

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Imagine Argentina winning the World Cup. They would be World Champions in two of the biggest sport codes.

Argentina had Messi to galvanise the team, who were hell bent he wouldn't play his likely last World Cup without winning one having failed to win the previous 4 he played in. Can we say this about their Rugby equivalent? And Rugby being a much different sport more about the team.

That's exactly the word I was looking for. Fatigue.

Here's an overview of all finals since 1987.

36 years of world cup rugby, and only 5 countries have reached a final.

New Zealand: 3/4
South Africa: 3/3
Australia: 2/4
England: 1/3
France: 0/3

The funny thing is that Argentina made it to more RWC semi finals than Ireland and Scotland combined, and the same amount as Wales, despite being a relatively new Tier 1 nation in the sport.

View attachment 18234

And in the equivalent period for football (1986 -2022) or 10 WC: only 8 teams have reached the WC finals of which only 6 were winners.

Germany - 2/3
Argentina - 2/4
Brazil - 2/3
France - 2/4
Italy - 1/2
Spain - 1/1
Holland - 0/1
Croatia - 0/1

Argentina v Germany happened 3 times. And only 2 new winners in France and Spain in that time.

Point is even football is a closed shop with very few countries getting to final and winning then winning the big prize.

 

[Scotty]

Probable England XV F Steward; J May, J Marchant, M Tuilagi, E Daly; O Farrell, A Mitchell; E Genge, J George, D Cole, M Itoje, O Chessum, C Lawes, T Curry, B Earl.

Per Times online.

Id say he will start Marler.

My hope is that he doesnt think more wait will counteract the SA power and put Billy in at 8.

But that seems a pretty good guess.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Seen on twitter that they're considering both Ford and Smith on the bench

Times saying he's likely to be ruled out of the 23 by injury….

Take your pick of social media cesspit or Tory supporting newspaper.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Id say he will start Marler.

My hope is that he doesnt think more wait will counteract the SA power and put Billy in at 8.

But that seems a pretty good guess.

I think Marler's an excellent shout for this. Makes a lot of sense.

I still don't believe I'm seeing Cole's name on the team sheet though. If he can get scrum parity for 45 minutes I'll say fair play but the memory of the 19 final is pretty vivid and any repetition of that would make Borthwick look a bit silly.

 

[McTallshort]

I think Marler's an excellent shout for this. Makes a lot of sense.

I still don't believe I'm seeing Cole's name on the team sheet though. If he can get scrum parity for 45 minutes I'll say fair play but the memory of the 19 final is pretty vivid and any repetition of that would make Borthwick look a bit silly.

Wasn't that Mako?