[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I may be in a minority here with some of the blue sky thinking, but having watched all the England and South African games this wc, I really can't see us even getting close to SA. It's almost as if they play grown up rugby and we play touch. They are just animals on defence, lethal in attack and very tactically astute.

While we are physical for about 10 minutes each half, are tactically poor and are not lethal in attack in the slightest. Our backs are so slow and ponderous and our forwards more mobile while trying to play like the beasts in SA.

I fully expect an absolute spanking and I can guarantee that every SA player will be licking their lips at destroying us.

 

[Nudger]

So, taking on board the above (and my misnaming blunders) there doesn't seem to be a lot of choice. Bot sure about the starting props but the rest is surely:

2. George
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Earl
7. Laws
8. Curry
9. Mitchell
10. Farrell
11. Daly
12. Manu
13. Marchant
14. May
15. Steward

don't see the point in going 6-2 split on the bench as we won't have the power to match SA anyway so throw caution to the wind and go for Ford, Smith and Care as the backs replacement. Either they conjure some magic to see us over the line, or the games already lost by then and it won't bloody matter.

Again I'd like to Ludlum bench over Billy, maybe risk Underhill on the bench as well as the man's a beast, but other than that I'm not sure what else would make a difference?

6 2 split for me care and Lawrence

 

[ageingback23]

I may be in a minority here with some of the blue sky thinking, but having watched all the England and South African games this wc, I really can't see us even getting close to SA. It's almost as if they play grown up rugby and we play touch. They are just animals on defence, lethal in attack and very tactically astute.

While we are physical for about 10 minutes each half, are tactically poor and are not lethal in attack in the slightest. Our backs are so slow and ponderous and our forwards more mobile while trying to play like the beasts in SA.

I fully expect an absolute spanking and I can guarantee that every SA player will be licking their lips at destroying us.

You've clearly not been reading the thread properly. SBs got a plan. A plan so cunning you could brush your teeth with it..

 

[ageingback23]

6 2 split for me care and Lawrence

Really? But what's the point? Why would having one more forward on the bench help at all. We won't be able to outmuscle the Boks, even with fresh bodies on the pitch, so instead get players with a skill set that will actually help on the pitch ie ones that can kick and move fast (or faster).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Loads of returned tickets back in 2015 when the home nations and France went out. I already got a ticket for the semi ABs v SA through the ballot and managed to get a final ticket, but had to pay top whack for it - category B which was £505 at the time, but a great seat and in line with where BB scored the winning try. Luckily it was a great final, lovely autumn sunny weather with 5 tries and that great AB team's last match together. Totally worth it for me.

That's a lot of money. Great if you felt it was worth it.

I don't think I'm particularly tight (although I am half Scottish….) but I just wouldn't pay that much for a ticket for any sporting event. Especially if it didn't involve my team.

 

[Scotty]

6 2 split for me care and Lawrence

It wont happen he wants Smith starting or benching to add some attacking flair. We do kind of need that, we shouldn't need a 10 at 15 to help our attack but honestly we do as our attack isnt functioning. So we need to put Smith in, its a smart move in the situation.

Hopr it isnt a 6-2 at the expense of Lawrence, could be 6-2 with Ford left out....id feel bad for ford tbh.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Rassie has named what he thinks the England team will be. He has got Sinckler starting and Cole on the bench. Has he got inside information?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

 

[40/20]

Rassie still living in Gats' head rent free...

England must beware Rassie Erasmus' dark arts if they want to beat Springboks

 

[TopTen2003]

I wouldn't be completely surprised to see us go with Marchant, Steward on wings if Smith starts FB? Equally unsurprised to see Steward start full back.

I can't help but think our kick chase is going to be massive in this. We won't want to be going too many phases - we will wanna be avoiding their breakdown sharks.

We will want some height and a decent boot wherever we can find it I think.

9. Mitchell
10. Farrell
11. Daly
12. Tuilagi
13. Lawrence
14. Marchant
15. Steward

- kick game and crash ball?

Not sure how the bench would look if that was the starting XV. Presumably only one of Smith/Ford

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That's a lot of money. Great if you felt it was worth it.

I don't think I'm particularly tight (although I am half Scottish….) but I just wouldn't pay that much for a ticket for any sporting event. Especially if it didn't involve my team.

Yes, I agree the average fan with family wouldn't be willing to pay that for a ticket. But I can say it was a once in a lifetime and I can say I went to a RWC final (one to cross off the bucket list.)

The only one so far in our life time which would have been worth going to was of course the 2003 final but that would have involved paying for flights and hotel, on top of the ticket (if available) . And that would have cost a lot more than £505.

A NZ v SA final could be an all time classic if it comes to fruition. Even if neither is your team.

 

[BPM]

I may be in a minority here with some of the blue sky thinking, but having watched all the England and South African games this wc, I really can't see us even getting close to SA. It's almost as if they play grown up rugby and we play touch. They are just animals on defence, lethal in attack and very tactically astute.

While we are physical for about 10 minutes each half, are tactically poor and are not lethal in attack in the slightest. Our backs are so slow and ponderous and our forwards more mobile while trying to play like the beasts in SA.

I fully expect an absolute spanking and I can guarantee that every SA player will be licking their lips at destroying us.

I didn't enjoy reading this but unfortunately I agree.

My hope is that we keep it respectable.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I cannot see Smith at 15 again. We saw vs France that SA will occasionally kick to compete and they have a knack for making it work. We need to have a 15 who can compete in the air and have players not be lazy fuckers so we are there before the SA support are. There really is no excuse to be outnumbered by the opposition behind your own lines, it is sheer laziness. Smith is not the poor defender he has been portrayed to be and fronted up to Randrandra just fine imo. In the air though, I cannot see him winning that.

Also how is fuckers not starred but ***le is?

 

[unrated]

I would be surprised if the Bok setup didn't take this match just as seriously as France TBH. But you never know, academically you know you'll have to turn up but my hope is we do not buy into the favorites tag too much and recognize the danger no matter the sledging that will come from the fans in the lead up and it doesn't go sit there in the back of the mind.

Think the squad has been managed superbly. Like for instance Mostert was pulled early and you could see in his face he was anything but gassed and still hungry. Hopefully that hunger carries over. Other than that pull Vermeulen and put in Wiese for my 2 cents. Different players but here assuming we have experience elsewhere I'd rather bring in hunger but only 3 or max 4 positions so you don't disrupt the flow of the team. My hope:

1 Kitshoff / Nche
2 Mbonambi / Fourie
3 Malherbe / Nyakane - in the front row I am happy with either set starting and wouldn't see it as rotation per se and more shared load
4 Etzebeth (though he has to be knackered)
5 Mostert
6 Kolisi though you pull him early for Smith
7 PSdT
8 Wiese (Vermeulen totally out)
9 Reinach
10 Libbok
11 Arendse
12 De Allende
13 Kriel
14 Kolbe
15 Willemse

16/17/18 see 1/2/3
19 Snyman
20 Smith
21 De Klerk
22 Pollard
23 Am / Van Staden if 6-2 not too fussed

On Etzebeth I would like to say he is well equipped to handle it as the Sharks used him sparingly, giving him lots of rest weeks and time off, even during very important weeks such as vs Leinster, and then he was also injured for a long time. But I guess all our Bok players has been very well managed, they had a very very invasive Bok rest policy during the URC. Many players also played in Japan which is chilled.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I cannot see Smith at 15 again. We saw vs France that SA will occasionally kick to compete and they have a knack for making it work. We need to have a 15 who can compete in the air and have players not be lazy fuckers so we are there before the SA support are. There really is no excuse to be outnumbered by the opposition behind your own lines, it is sheer laziness. Smith is not the poor defender he has been portrayed to be and fronted up to Randrandra just fine imo. In the air though, I cannot see him winning that.

Also how is fuckers not starred but ***le is?

Lucky for SB that if he doesn't start Smith at FB he's actually got 3 other FBs in the squad in Steward, Malins and Arundell while Daly has tons of experience there.

It's actually quite funny in that we have one average/ poor winger in the entire 33, but basically 3/4 FBs with Daly being a utility player and SB chooses the Smith who's never played at FB before to start there in a quarter final over the above players. I can't get my head around that.

 

[Jer1cho]

Looks like we could see Moodie start. I don't really mind who the coaches pick anymore. We are a team of 33 not a team of 15. I trust them 100% now because they have earned it.

 

[ageingback23]

I cannot see Smith at 15 again. We saw vs France that SA will occasionally kick to compete and they have a knack for making it work. We need to have a 15 who can compete in the air and have players not be lazy fuckers so we are there before the SA support are. There really is no excuse to be outnumbered by the opposition behind your own lines, it is sheer laziness. Smith is not the poor defender he has been portrayed to be and fronted up to Randrandra just fine imo. In the air though, I cannot see him winning that.

Also how is fuckers not starred but ***le is?

Agree with this. The France game was one on very small margins and, more than once, SA deployed little cross field Gary owens which the French didn't regather and gave SA territory and got them behind the French D. We need to be impeccable in the air on Saturday. One knock on, or ball not cleanly gathered and it could be curtains. Also, we need to get the player who's made the catch and inevitably ends up in contact quickly, otherwise we are just going to cough up pens for holding. It's all basics, but needs to be executed at the highest level and with intensity

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Looks like we could see Moodie start. I don't really mind who the coaches pick anymore. We are a team of 33 not a team of 15. I trust them 100% now because they have earned it.

Looks like Moodie and Pollard might see time, yeah. Makes me think we are looking at targeting the air. Maybe even more than usual. Not sure that England will mind though- I remember Steward man alone shut that down last time out. Moodie probably our best there in the air but whether at 13 or 14? 13 would be tough on Kriel and even Am- I mean if you want to bring in Am now is the time even if off the bench. On the wing it'd hard on either Kolbe or Arendse both who havn't had a poor game.

But like you said, all the little oddball shenanigans have come off and contributed to marginal victories so I'll sit back and trust as well. TBF Kriel looked beat up so can understand leaving him for a week.

Moodie also a huge intercept threat. Possibly looking at having England play all the rugby and strike off turn-overs and intercepts. For that to work you have to have the better set piece, win the collisions so that the oppo attack is stagnant making those passes easier to pick off and be ahead on the board forcing the oppo to be pro-active or at least try to be and also be in the right area of the field. All things we are geared to do but the implementation has to on point as ever and the big question is intensity. France topped us for the intensity for most of the match and we suffered for it but for soft tries negating their scores. England under EJ targeted the early game. Not sure of this side but I wouldn't be surprised if we see them have an early go and revert to playing percentages if they can get their head in front. If we survive that I think we are good.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This is the Boks 8th RWC.

They have won every 3rd tournament like clockwork with the following 2 being a semi and a quarter before winning again.

1995 won followed by a semi and a quarter.

2007 won followed (just to mix it up) by a quarter and a semi.

2019 won followed by ? Well history tells us they must be going out in the semi in a repeat of the 95 cycle.

And then there's England's record of having won their last 3 semis - 03, 07 and 19. We've won 4 out of 5 semis in total so 80% success rate. The Boks have won 3 out of 5 - a mere 60%. And have the Boks ever beaten us in a semi - no they have not.

I'm amazed the Boks even think they have an earthly.

Bill is coming home. Arise Sir Steve!

 

[Gray_Mouser]

View attachment 18218

Who is worst will be decided in the bronze final, won't it?

And maybe England won't even play it, who knows? I can't believe I will root for them, but they are such underdogs I just have to.