[RWC2023 SF2] England vs South Africa (21/10/2023)

[Grizwald]

"Insanity is doing the Same thing over and over again and expecting a different result ". Why do we try to take SA on at their strength every time we play them, when that ploy has largely failed abysmally since 2003. Unlike Ireland, and to a certain degree Wales, the Springboks have absolutely no fear about playing England. They don't rate us, and frankly why would they when they've beaten us 15 times in the last 20 meetings?.

I'm with ya but our recent record isn't that bad agaisnt South Africa.

Since the 2018 tour which they won 2-1 its 4 wins to 3 on the Boks favour. Their team is at their peak over the the last 4 year cycle, right about of youth and experience.

 

[Jer1cho]

Will be interesting to see how old men Daly and May deal with the cross kicks to KLA and Kolbe. 1 on 1 those two Springboks can really hurt you.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Martin is only listed as 3 kg heavier than Itoje and the same as Chessum. He's definitely one for the the future although he might become more of a 6.

Given the the one of nature and players moving abroad and retiring I though when the squad was picked it was crying out for the likes of Joe Launchbury who's got 7/8kg on any of the locks in the squad.

Nah Martin is gonna be sticking at lock now

 

[saulan]

I'm with ya but our recent record isn't that bad agaisnt South Africa.

Since the 2018 tour which they won 2-1 its 4 wins to 3 on the Boks favour. Their team is at their peak over the the last 4 year cycle, right about of youth and experience.

Would caveat that following that series, it is indeed 2-2, but with 3 games at Twickenham and one being the RWC final. Those games that SA lost were both at Twickenham and both by 1 point (12-11 in 2018, 27-26 in 2021).

 

[Saintjay]

Smith, May, Manu and Curry all on "modified" training so all presumably carrying knocks of varying degrees.

Also just read that Borthwick hasn't named an unchanged starting XV in his 15 games in charge. Indecisive - I don't know, I mean it might be, it might not be….

Rain's forecast and it's the Boks. Playing anyone other than Steward at FB would be the very definition of insanity.

Curry needs to calm down on giving away penalties.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That's a very big presumptuous sweeping statement which I seriously doubt you can support with any meaningful numbers. I'm guessing that SA and NZ supporters won't be among your "lot of rugby fans" claim...

While I understand your sentiment, the simple fact is RWC knock-out format means the team with the depth, fitness and management programmes stand a better chance of winning. World Ranking in-between RWCs don't count in RWCs - we've landed on our butts when we were expected to win as No.1, and Ireland has just suffered the same fate.

I'm not sure how you can take issue with what he said, it's not even remotely controversial. And it's absolutely no slight on New Zealand or South Africa to say that it's good to see a range of teams getting further. It doesn't take a genius to realise that the northern hemipshere, for example, would like to see more northern hemisphere finalists.

I also think your point about depth fitness and management, whilst true in the round, misses the fact that two of those semi's were literally 50 50 games which didn't come down to those factors specifically. Ireland and France had all the depth fitness and management to be in a final.

On England - the Smith experiment feels a little pointless now. Wouldn't it have been better to try and help Steward get continuity and play his way back into form?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Curry needs to calm down on giving away penalties.

Two isn't that many considering how much people have gone about it

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Issue with dropping Cole is Sinckler and Stuart are worse in the scrum
We're gonna get beat up there regardless but Cole might see us retain our own put-ins

Our guys are usually too stubborn to accept they are being beaten in the scrum and just getting the damn ball out. South Africans could legitimately just keep knocking them ball on intentionally to get scrum penalties.

 

[OwenPB]

Yeah, no need to be an ass and try to insult me for simply stating a fact. A lot of rugby fans are tired of seeing the same two teams winning it. That has nothing to do with how good they are. The rugby isn't boring, the same two teams winning it, is.

And another thing: Me being Dutch has absolutely nothing to do with what I said here. But go on. Be a c.unt

No wonder so many people left this place.

I think he's refferring to you being Dutch because obviously Holland had the greatest team to ever play football (outside of maybe early 70's Brazil) and they never won a WC so you're obviously rooting for Ireland & France to do the same in rugby! ;-)

 

[Geordie]

Dropped for not carrying enough.

@Scotty

That's a big ask for Martin. He's still pretty raw and that Bok pack isn't just powerful, but streetwise. This is the kind of game that could make him or set him back. I hope he swims.

Yeah, he hasn't really shown up so far this WC...but he's very raw at this level. What a learning experience for him though..

As you say....let's hope he shows what he's capable of.....

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

Ask anyone outside those two countries who they'd prefer to win and I bet hardly any say either of those two.

It's not even about a dislike of those countries, it's more of a nice change that another country has achieved a quality enough to compete with them.

Understandable, but with 8 of the 9 RWCs won by 3 SH countries, it reflects the concentration of rugby strength in the SH - shown yet again even in this RWC with 3 SH semi-finalists.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Issue with dropping Cole is Sinckler and Stuart are worse in the scrum
We're gonna get beat up there regardless but Cole might see us retain our own put-ins

Are they that much worse now?

All in favour of playing our best scrummaging TH, especially against these opponents, but will the Great Scrum Malfunction of 2019 come back to bite? They're always after front row blood, but suspect Cole will be extra targeted.

 

[ncurd]

Understandable, but with 8 of the 9 RWCs won by 3 SH countries, it reflects the concentration of rugby strength in the SH - shown yet again even in this RWC with 3 SH semi-finalists.

Yeah but unlike previous world cups it of easily been 4 NH countries. France, Ireland and Wales could of all won their matches on a different day.

Previously England and France (Wales to some degree) aside NH countries just got blown away.

 

[Herman the German]

Yeah but unlike previous world cups it of easily been 4 NH countries. France, Ireland and Wales could of all won their matches on a different day.

Previously England and France (Wales to some degree) aside NH countries just got blown away.

As well as England could've lost theirs on a different day. It was a tense, first class, high intensity quarter final regarding all four games.

 

[ncurd]

As well as England could've lost theirs on a different day. It was a tense, first class, high intensity quarter final regarding all four games.

I think the England game was slightly differently it was less Fiji competed and than England dropped off massively in the last 20 mins.

Plus the ref allowed Fiji to get away with a lot of stuff in that last 20.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are they that much worse now?

All in favour of playing our best scrummaging TH, especially against these opponents, but will the Great Scrum Malfunction of 2019 come back to bite? They're always after front row blood, but suspect Cole will be extra targeted.

I think so,
Stuart vs All Blacks in November was one of the biggest mismatches I can remember seeing,
Sinckler isn't as bad but still worse than Cole - has more positives in terms of carrying etc. but setpiece presumably valued more

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

Ask anyone outside those two countries who they'd prefer to win and I bet hardly any say either of those two.

It's not even about a dislike of those countries, it's more of a nice change that another country has achieved a quality enough to compete with them.

Understandable, but with 8 of the 9 RWCs won by 3 SH countries, it reflects the concentration of rugby strength in the SH - shown yet again even in this RWC with 3 SH semi-finalists.

Yeah but unlike previous world cups it of easily been 4 NH countries. France, Ireland and Wales could of all won their matches on a different day.

Previously England and France (Wales to some degree) aside NH countries just got blown away.

you guys can live vicariously through could haves and might haves but we prefer the realities of today - 3 SH teams in semi finals, which could easily have been 4 to use your logic.

 

[ncurd]

you guys can live vicariously through could haves and might haves but we prefer the realities of today - 3 SH teams in semi finals, which could easily have been 4 to use your logic.

I don't know what's funny. We didn't win but my point is the gap is not as large as it was in the 90's or sometimes during the 00's, 10's. That was all

 

[OllyM97]

Would caveat that following that series, it is indeed 2-2, but with 3 games at Twickenham and one being the RWC final. Those games that SA lost were both at Twickenham and both by 1 point (12-11 in 2018, 27-26 in 2021).

That 12-11 was one of the biggest robberies I've ever seen in International Rugby. It's forgotten now because it was the game where Farrell 'tackled!!" Esterhuizen, but SA were ridiculously dominant for 70 minutes of that game. They should have absolutely walloped us. In a very similar game in terms of pattern in the RWC final, they won by 20 points.

 

[Horacito]

I don't know if this hasn't been posted here before but it popped in my feed

Sir Clive

Visionary analysis by sir Clive, the boks are not as fit apparently