[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

Do you not think the winners of Ireland v New Zealand or France v South Africa are going to be the ones who make the least mistakes.The four best teams will be wanting there opposition to have an off day….I've never said England will win the World Cup.I've always said we have a chance

I certainly won't be hoping we lose just to prove a point that players should be dropped or changes made

 

[ageingback23]

But we weren't in scotlands group so it's pretty irrelevant.we could have won the World Cup four years ago if it wasn't for South Africa beating us so we're pretty much in the same boat…there's always ifs and buts in a World Cup tournament

My point is that being in the quarters does not make us equal to the other teams who are there who have come via a much harder route and played significantly better. I would love to see a turnaround in our fortunes, but the reality is, that against France, SA, Ireland, or NZ we would get schooled, and are unlikely to even throw a landing punch. We may get lucky, an early red card for example, but all things being even we are probably viewed as a tier two nation at the moment. No real threat. Fiji, in contrast, have played their way into the quarters, arguably were robbed by the ref against Wales, and look and feel drilled and dangerous. A team very much on the way up.

 

[Grizwald]

Who plays 9/10 for ENG this week then guys? Can't help but fear a little for Mitchell and Ford given how the Samoa game panned out. Can just see SB going for OF at 10

Don't really know. Mitchell was poor at the weekend but box kicking isn't his natural game and the English forwards weren't securing quick ball. I heard the ruck speed was second slowest in the comp.

This is what I can't work out about Borthwick, we constantly hear he sets his teams up to play a certain way I.e. kicking for territory and applying pressure then it seems his preferred 9 is a lad who wasn't in the original squad.

I don't want to but I think we may see Ford/Farrell again at the weekend and maybe Mitchell at 9 or swap with Care to go on the bench I'm surprised Ben Youngs hasn't played much with his Leicester connection and the way he plays.

What I'd like to see

Genge George Sinkler
Itoje Chessum/Ribbands (Chessum wasn't great v Samoa)
Curry Earl Lawes

Mitchell
Ford
Lawrence
Marchant
Arundell
May
Smith

The bench is a mess if Borthwick does go with Ford, Farrell and starts Steward it leaves space for Smith on the bench. If he does start one of Ford/Farrell one of Smith/Ford probably drops out of the 23 completely.

 

[ageingback23]

So, what team do we all want for Saturday? Im not sure about the pack but in a perfect world

1. Marler
2. George
3 Sinkler
4. Itoji
5. Chessum
6. Lawes
7. Earl
8. Ludlum
9. Mitchel
10. Ford
11. Daley
12. Manu
13. Marchant
14. Arundel
15. Steward

Any advances on that?

 

[Grizwald]

It's not far off my above team. I'd stick with Curry at 7 and have Ludlum cover the backrow form the bench. May has ran around like a headless chicken and looked fragile defensively.

The biggest disappointment for me ove the warm ups and the WC has been Steward. He's had loads of game time too to play himself into form. I'd honestly put Smith at FB he's given England an attacking edge in the minutes he's played. England might scrape past Fiji at the weekend, SA or France will rip them a new one in a semi final but I'd rather they went down in a blaze of glory and need to score points to do that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My not exactly "hot take" of a prediction:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola (I reckon SB reverts to the MASS mindset in knockout rugby)
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Daly
15. Steward

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence

 

[dirty harry]

Oh IT, you're not actually going to fall for that absolute tosh about fitness programme, it's all part of the plan BS are you?! Because fitness hasn't been the biggest issue. Poor selections, people out of positions, Farrell still in the squad, poor kicking, hi pen rate, cards etc etc. To give SB some leeway, he did inherit a hot mess, and hasn't had a lot of time to turn things around. But rather than embrace the new, look to a clean sheet and brighter future, he's stuck with the same old same old, lacking the courage to adopt real change. We've dragged ourselves through by far the easiest pool unconvincingly, with the first serious challenge coming in the semis, where we will be dumped out on our ass and yet it will be heralded as success and that England are on the right track. Well, they're not. The only thing that would convince me that anything has changed is if we lift the cup, which means having to beat two of the best teams in the world, or at least run the final close. Anything less is just smoke and mirrors.

I dont understand this criticism of SB for selecting conservatively...

We have a rock solid example of a coach, taking over the same time as SB, making radical change, starting fresh and bringing a new, young and inexperienced Australia to the RWC aaaaaaand crash out humiliatingly.

Fiji arent that much stronger than Samoa, their recent head to heads were close, and Samoa have lost by only a score to Argentina, Ireland, Japan.

SB has categorically done the right thing in not clearing house, and starting from scratch, otherwise England would be landing in Gatwick right about now as Aus are in Sydney IMHO

 

[ageingback23]

I dont understand this criticism of SB for selecting conservatively...

We have a rock solid example of a coach, taking over the same time as SB, making radical change, starting fresh and bringing a new, young and inexperienced Australia to the RWC aaaaaaand crash out humiliatingly.

Fiji arent that much stronger than Samoa, their recent head to heads were close, and Samoa have lost by only a score to Argentina, Ireland, Japan.

SB has categorically done the right thing in not clearing house, and starting from scratch, otherwise England would be landing in Gatwick right about now as Aus are in Sydney IMHO

No one is saying SB should clear house, just clear Farrell, and while he's at it raise to ranks of an international coach, work with the players he has and come up with a playing approach that best suites them, rather than just trying to recreate Leicester in a England shirt. And yes I know, we needed some rebuilding, back to basics blah blah, but I don't believe for one second that once the basics are sorted, that suddenly we are going to see the more expansive and cohesive attacking game adopted by every other world leading side, because I don't SB had that in him. So we will squander Smith, Arundel and others like them in favour of conservative options and style of play, driving people away from Twickenham and the youth away from the sport in general.

 

[ageingback23]

My not exactly "hot take" of a prediction:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola (I reckon SB reverts to the MASS mindset in knockout rugby)
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Daly
15. Steward

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence

If Earls doesn't start this game it would be a joke! Although I agree that Vunipola, like Farrell, will be picked for reasons known only to the stars, which depressing. Don't mind Care starting over Mitchell if that's what happens. Smith not being anywhere would also be an issue for me. He's the sort of lad who will win a game from know where, and we may well need him come the semis, so get him on the pitch as much as possible, but again, I can see your prediction coming to be.

 

[Zed]

Arundell had a punch up with Farrell hence the reason he's not playing. So says the rumour mill.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My not exactly "hot take" of a prediction:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Vunipola (I reckon SB reverts to the MASS mindset in knockout rugby)
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Daly
15. Steward

Dan, Marler, Stuart, Martin, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence

Don't think Genge and Sinckler have started together yet. Seemingly SB is against them as a pair. We had what passes for full strength against Arg and Sam with Cole starting both - don't shoot the messenger!

Binny would be a joke as Earl has been very good. I can't see it happening but if it did maybe Earl would go to 7 - he's one of the few form players and Curry looks undercooked.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Underhill fast tracked to the bench.

Not a huge fan of Marchant on the wing but I'd take him over Daly with Lawrence at 13. Arundell presumably on the naughty step.

 

[IT157]

My point is that being in the quarters does not make us equal to the other teams who are there who have come via a much harder route and played significantly better. I would love to see a turnaround in our fortunes, but the reality is, that against France, SA, Ireland, or NZ we would get schooled, and are unlikely to even throw a landing punch. We may get lucky, an early red card for example, but all things being even we are probably viewed as a tier two nation at the moment. No real threat. Fiji, in contrast, have played their way into the quarters, arguably were robbed by the ref against Wales, and look and feel drilled and dangerous. A team very much on the way up.

I guess you missed the Fiji vs. Portugal game.

 

[dirty harry]

No one is saying SB should clear house, just clear Farrell, and while he's at it raise to ranks of an international coach, work with the players he has and come up with a playing approach that best suites them, rather than just trying to recreate Leicester in a England shirt. And yes I know, we needed some rebuilding, back to basics blah blah, but I don't believe for one second that once the basics are sorted, that suddenly we are going to see the more expansive and cohesive attacking game adopted by every other world leading side, because I don't SB had that in him. So we will squander Smith, Arundel and others like them in favour of conservative options and style of play, driving people away from Twickenham and the youth away from the sport in general.

I mean that's a dramatic take lol

World cups arent for building, and giving young players the chance... as Donaldson, Gordon, Naqarwasai and co!

SB recieved a squad in turmoil, out of confidence and lacking direction. There is not a coach on the planet who turns that into world beating in 8 games.

I think SB's KPI's for this RWC is probably get out of the group, avoid total humiliation, and then start a rebuild in the new year. Anything beyond a quarter is probably a bonus.

Well I think his minimum standard has been acheived, AND they won the group. Now they are one Fiji revenge match from a semi, where SB will go into massive underdogs. That's the time for risks.

What more can you fans want, 4 wins from 4 is probably above what anyone was expecting, in fact I'm sure there were plenty stating England would have a hard time in the group, with Arg, Japan and an improved Samoa to contend with.

If Gatland had only 8 games to takes Wales into RWC, and then managed to win 4 from 4 I would be....

Oh wait!

Enjoy mun!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone know why Arundel was dropped?

 

[dirty harry]

Anyone know why Arundel was dropped?

Tax fraud...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

No it wouldn't. It would only allow Sweeney et al the chance to paper over cracks instead of stripping back what's broken and rebuilding from the foundations.

Personally I wouldn't care if we cheesed our way to winning the World Cup, and papered over the cracks - winning this thing is the ultimate prize and it doesn't matter how you do it.

The point is that we know this isn't going to happen. The way some people are talking, you'd think that our game was rock solid, just not flashy or good looking. That's not the case is it. Some of the errors in the Samoa game were jarring and worrying. This is also about trajectory - I'd be feeling happier if our performances has happened the other way round, as I think Samoa was our worst and Argentina clearly the best. I say this believing we will beat Fiji and hope I'm right - but beyond that I feat lies a brick wall with out current approach.

Just on attack - I'm not advocating running the ball from our own half all the time or something like that. Right now i'd settle for some basic effort put into fixing the misfiring set piece plays. It's not like we aren't trying to play off the back of set pieces for example - we're having a go but getting lost almost immediately, players are overrunning the ball, spilling it and so forth. This idea that trying to improve these elements crowds out being able to defend, is nonsense.

I also also want to add - believing we have more potential than this isn't negative, It's the opposite really. 4 years ago we played some excellent rugby and many of the same squad are still here, and we've added some extra talent to that. Steward, Arundell, and many of our veterans have much more to give than this. Somethings wrong with the system and environment if players are systematically underperforming.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on this. I hope we see Cunderhill + Earl at the weekend. And someone dig up my boy Launchbury from wherever Eddie buried him - never once let us down!

 

[Half Pint]

Leaving the halfbacks conversation to one side for a moment..
I'm not seeing too much special from Ribbans or Chessum, so I'd be tempted to put Itoje & Lawes in 2nd row, and then fit in any three of Curry/Earl/Ludlam/Underhill in the back row.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Leaving the halfbacks conversation to one side for a moment..
I'm not seeing too much special from Ribbans or Chessum, so I'd be tempted to put Itoje & Lawes in 2nd row, and then fit in any three of Curry/Earl/Ludlam/Underhill in the back row.

LAWES IS NOT A SECOND ROW ANY MORE

Literally the only thing that annoys me on a similar level to "Watson can't play 15" or "Smith is flakey/can't tackle/some other random flair 10 stereotype"

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Anyone know why Arundel was dropped?

Probably because everyone keeps spelling his surname incorrectly.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Probably because everyone keeps spelling his surname incorrectly.

Commiserations to Harry for having a name that is easy to mis-spell