[RWC2023] England vs Samoa (07/10/2023)

[BPM]

It's interesting that the home nation with the greatest player pool struggles to fill what is probably the simplest position in the backline to master.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying 12 is easy, but it doesnt have the decision making responsibilities of 10 or 13, it isnt key in defence, and one could argue you could hide an average player there, as long as you dont play Smith who you need to hide out wide.


I mean look at some players who have excelled in the 12 Jersey, Danty currently, De Allande, previously Robert's. BIG physical men with limited skillsets. Hell we dont all rave about Tuisovas distribution, defensive coordination, or decision making under pressure lol


I think that's why Farrell doesnt suit, hes a leader, he wants responsibility, he wants to make decisions and lead from the front, Tuilagi is probably the best bet for 2.5 games until hes out for the rest of the season again

You really can't stand Marcus Smith can you?

I can only assume you've barely watched him as your assessment of his qualities (or lack thereof) is wildly inaccurate IMO.

Is he the best option for England at 10 right now? No. But he's also not this **** weak, flaky waste of space he's being portrayed as.

 

[ncurd]

You really can't stand Marcus Smith can you?

I can only assume you've barely watched him as your assessment of his qualities (or lack thereof) is wildly inaccurate IMO.

Is he the best option for England at 10 right now? No. But he's also not this **** weak, flaky waste of space he's being portrayed as.

Same arguement people use to make about Ford with a handful of defensive errors to point to as if Farrell is some kind of defensive god,

 

[Saintjay]

Difference between Ford, Farrell and Smith is the Faz household might have a winners medal and runners up medal in a few weeks.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Anybody that watches Harlequins regularly will know that Smith is fantastic for them consistently (so is Dombrandt). The question is whether his style of play can fit into the England team. I will accept that so far he has only shown brief flashes for England often because the other England players don't seem to be on the same wavelength as him. However he deserves an extended run.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

6 pages before the teams are even out haha

 

[Jimbo]

I think this is a pertinent point, depending how you play 12 has a varied option of strengths.

I personally dont hate the Ford Farell 2 playmakers left and right of the scrum, it offers kicking and ball playing options, and IMO allows eager wingers to play off either sides shoulder.

The problem becomes focus in attack, and ball carrying, imagine being Youngs and both players are demanding the ball, for different reasons, maybe it's a case of too many cooks?

I think 12 takes a bit of time, look at Tompkins, getting plaudits now, but it's been 2 seasons of wild headless chicken play, hes always been a great ball carrier, but he leaves his position in the defensive line, he takes on too much and just constantly over plays.

Against Fiji he gave George North a nightmare, North never knew where he was at any point, for the 2nd try, and the Radrada drop Tompkins didnt enter the line, let alone come off it hard, he corner flagged lol.

He finally looked disciplined against Aus, and it settled our entire backline.

I think maybe that's what England need, just to settle someone in there for a period and let the backline grow as an organism?

I think Tomkins has been quality for a lot longer than given credit, the difference is he played within a well oiled machine and had a pretty defined roll, attack wise I would say he exceeded Brad Barrett but learned a lot of the defensive stuff from him, if you ask of him what Sarries have then he's quality, it's also worth noting outside of Liam Williams he's probably not played with or against too many of the Welsh guys often so it's a completely different setup which has probably hindered him internationally and deserved the credit for adapting even if it took longer than the Welsh would have liked.

 

[Jimbo]

Anybody that watches Harlequins regularly will know that Smith is fantastic for them consistently (so is Dombrandt). The question is whether his style of play can fit into the England team. I will accept that so far he has only shown brief flashes for England often because the other England players don't seem to be on the same wavelength as him. However he deserves an extended run.

It's more about how you want to play the game I think, if we are prepared to concede that a forward dominated power game isn't what England currently have at present then you need someone with a point of difference certainly when you start playing top 6 for that Smith is really
The only choice, whilst a more
Conservative set piece track bully setup is probably enough to beat those below 6th most of the time.

 

[IT157]

I think Tomkins has been quality for a lot longer than given credit, the difference is he played within a well oiled machine and had a pretty defined roll, attack wise I would say he exceeded Brad Barrett but learned a lot of the defensive stuff from him, if you ask of him what Sarries have then he's quality, it's also worth noting outside of Liam Williams he's probably not played with or against too many of the Welsh guys often so it's a completely different setup which has probably hindered him internationally and deserved the credit for adapting even if it took longer than the Welsh would have liked.

Yeah Tompkins has been very good defensively for years.

 

[Saintjay]

Anybody that watches Harlequins regularly will know that Smith is fantastic for them consistently (so is Dombrandt). The question is whether his style of play can fit into the England team. I will accept that so far he has only shown brief flashes for England often because the other England players don't seem to be on the same wavelength as him. However he deserves an extended run.

Yes but is that more of a reflection of the prem as a whole. The truth is the majority of prem teams can't compete with the best of France, SA and Irish clubs. Very few prem teams can bully any of those nations top sides. Dombrandt a prime example, good prem player not really international class.

It's been done to death on here but the prem isn't producing consistent young world class talent. Very rarely do you have world XV's without one or two english lads but we don't now or for the foreseeable

 

[Rugbyfan564]

It's hilarious they want to persuade Arundell to come back next summer. I doubt he will after going from five ties to out of the 23.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

**** sake.

That is all.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yes but is that more of a reflection of the prem as a whole. The truth is the majority of prem teams can't compete with the best of France, SA and Irish clubs. Very few prem teams can bully any of those nations top sides. Dombrandt a prime example, good prem player not really international class.

It's been done to death on here but the prem isn't producing consistent young world class talent. Very rarely do you have world XV's without one or two english lads but we don't now or for the foreseeable

I think there's loads of talent coming through the premiership. The problem is Eddie didn't pick any and without the saxons there's no visibility for some of the players. Apart from tight head I'd say we easily have 2-3 players in each position who are young and talented. Those players need looking at to see who will be the next step above and then put them in an international team that's properly coaches and we may start to see some flourish.

Not all of them will be brilliant but we need to start looking at the younger players as soon as this World Cup is done.

Now when's this disappointing team announced?

 

[Scotty]

England starting XV to face Samoa: Steward; Marchant, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Sinckler, Martin, Vunipola, Care, Smith, Lawrence.

Ford Faz Manu i dont like, there is not much pace, my guess is Lawrence for Manu, Smith for steward to try ford Faz Lawrence. Or for ford and try Faz Lawrence Marchant.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Jesus that's bad. Reminds me of the start of Eddie's downfall with his stupid selections. Why May, why marchant on the wing, why Ford and Farrell, why Lawrence on the bench, why Billy on the bench?

Also why not start Dan, what happens if George gets injured in this dead rubber of a game, surely we should rotate him alone.

 

[IT157]

England starting XV to face Samoa: Steward; Marchant, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Sinckler, Martin, Vunipola, Care, Smith, Lawrence.

Ford Faz Manu i dont like, there is not much pace, my guess is Lawrence for Manu, Smith for steward to try ford Faz Lawrence. Or for ford and try Faz Lawrence Marchant.

Pretty much what was expected.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Difference between Ford, Farrell and Smith is the Faz household might have a winners medal and runners up medal in a few weeks.

More likely 2 beaten quarterfinalists.



(A for the benefit of our Irish friends).

 

[Nudger]

England starting XV to face Samoa: Steward; Marchant, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Marler, Sinckler, Martin, Vunipola, Care, Smith, Lawrence.

Ford Faz Manu i dont like, there is not much pace, my guess is Lawrence for Manu, Smith for steward to try ford Faz Lawrence. Or for ford and try Faz Lawrence Marchant.

They couldn't pick a slower midfield if they'd tried

 

[Crash Hamster]

They couldn't pick a slower midfield if they'd tried

Yep, they'll have to kick five yards shorter to have any chance of competing...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

They couldn't pick a slower midfield if they'd tried

And one winger who's a centre and another who's visibly lost a couple of yards of pace.

The irony of course being that they've bought in a 9 whose whole game is around adding pace. I'm trying to do the math….

Is Methuselah really now our first choice TH?

 

[Scotty]

Jesus that's bad. Reminds me of the start of Eddie's downfall with his stupid selections. Why May, why marchant on the wing, why Ford and Farrell, why Lawrence on the bench, why Billy on the bench?

Also why not start Dan, what happens if George gets injured in this dead rubber of a game, surely we should rotate him alone.

Please, dont get me started on George or Dan, that annoys me more than any other. Ffs George is number 1...we know this, he's very good.. no one is denying this. If he gets injured we have a young lad for the play offs whos been given next to no gametime pre or during the WC. Also i rate Dan highly, he could be great and bring alot to this team but he isnt ready to be first choice in a QF so why risk George...

Marchant on the wing doesnt bother me at all tbh, he's capable, even good so no issue talent wise. Yet the reason it doesnt bother me is because it could happen mid game and he needs time there. May on the other hand, Arundell should be least getting gametime.