[RWC2023] England vs Samoa (07/10/2023)

[ncurd]

Trying to win in a good defence, low scoring game is risky because it may only take a single try leaking in for you to lose. Great attack alone doesn't win games but if your plan is to spend an entire game absorbing punches and throwing none back except the odd opportunistic jab, you are unlikely to win much. You have to present a threat in attack yourself too.

See England 2019 to 2023

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

.....no....but that doesn't make it an irrelevant competency to discuss for a fly half

I actually think it does.I think someone wrote earlier about maybe teams would target smith in defence so both attack and defence are a relevant discussion for a fly half and I was more making a point because people seemed to be being negative about what Farrell actually offers and I was making the point in a round about way that

Trying to win in a good defence, low scoring game is risky because it may only take a single try leaking in for you to lose. Great attack alone doesn't win games but if your plan is to spend an entire game absorbing punches and throwing none back except the odd opportunistic jab, you are unlikely to win much. You have to present a threat in attack yourself too.

i said built on.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I was getting bored of the Farrell v Ford debate that has rumbled on over the last 7 or 8 years so Farrell v Smith or Farrell v Smith v Ford are nice variations.

Farrell for full back I say.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Guardian reporting a back to the future midfield of Ford, Farrell and Manu with Marchant and May on the wings and Steward at FB. First time in history a player's been dropped after scoring 5 tries?

Also expecting a Binnyless back row of Curry, Lawes and Earl. I mean right call but you didn't need to be Nostradamus to work out that Binny as the only out and out 8 wasn't the greatest idea.

 

[Saintjay]

Guardian reporting a back to the future midfield of Ford, Farrell and Manu with Marchant and May on the wings and Steward at FB. First time in history a player's been dropped after scoring 5 tries?

Also expecting a Binnyless back row of Curry, Lawes and Earl. I mean right call but you didn't need to be Nostradamus to work out that Binny as the only out and out 8 wasn't the greatest idea.

Binny as the only out and out 8 with better 8's available. We all knew Ford and Faz was going to probably be the go forward.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

First time in history a player's been dropped after scoring 5 tries?

That is a bit surprising tbf - can understand wanting a look at Marchant on the wing though, and starting both Marchant and Arundell is not a lot of international wing experience
I'd have still risked it though, with May on the bench if things go pear shaped

 

[ncurd]

I was getting bored of the Farrell v Ford debate that has rumbled on over the last 7 or 8 years so Farrell v Smith or Farrell v Smith v Ford are nice variations.

Farrell for full back I say.

Apart from the period where Ford(10)/Farrell(12) was a combination that worked really well the debate hasn't really changed. Its still the same arguments.

Smith just adds an extra dimension of should we invest in him now or later. Either way he doesn't work within this England team so its really just Ford V Farrell again.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Apart from the period where Ford(10)/Farrell(12) was a combination that worked really well the debate hasn't really changed. Its still the same arguments.

Smith just adds an extra dimension of should we invest in him now or later. Either way he doesn't work within this England team so its really just Ford V Farrell again.

Depressing, if fair, way of looking at it!

Non selecting Smith is a bit of tail wagging dog though. Does he currently fit vs should a future team be built around him or someone of a similar mindset?

 

[die_mole]

The only time Farrell has been a plus for England has been when he's played at 12 and he redistributes the ball out the back of pods. Tbf he was really good at it but England hasn't tried to do that since the last World Cup.

Translating from the saracens total rugby to the borthwick tactics is not 1:1.

 

[Zed]

Farrell is not a 12. I don't get why he's picked there. He's not quick and he can't step which makes him really predictable to defend against. Plus he doesn't have the power of someone like Tuilagi, Ma'a Nonu etc so can't break tackles, make half breaks. Everyone seems to rave about him, especially his teammates... he does the basics OK, but that's it. You could argue Wilkinson was cut from the same cloth, but he seemed to have a bit more of a rugby brain, more aware of the players around him. The only time I've seen it work, having a 12 like that, is when they're acting as another fly half, throwing long accurate passes to the fullback hitting the line at pace, for example.

 

[BPM]

Farrell is not a 12 and never has been. He's only ever been picked here because of the unwritten rule that he has to play and we haven't had anyone own that 12 shirt for years.

Tuilagi is almost exclusively playing 12 now, but for the majority of his career he was at 13 or on the treatment table. Slade and Lawrence are 13s who have been played at 12.

 

[dirty harry]

Farrell is not a 12 and never has been. He's only ever been picked here because of the unwritten rule that he has to play and we haven't had anyone own that 12 shirt for years.

Tuilagi is almost exclusively playing 12 now, but for the majority of his career he was at 13 or on the treatment table. Slade and Lawrence are 13s who have been played at 12.

is Tuilagi a complete player, or is he still learning his trade?

Bare with me, the guy has a shockingly low number of games under his belt, not just at international level, I mean in general. He has averaged what, 14 games per year all in? His last few years has been better, hes managed 20, 22 or so, but that only serves to bring his average up.

He really is one dimensional, and hes never managed to have a run of good performances, for a man in his 30's, who's held in such high regard, that's crazy.

I think hes part of the problem of Englands centre issues for a decade.

 

[Jimbo]

is Tuilagi a complete player, or is he still learning his trade?

Bare with me, the guy has a shockingly low number of games under his belt, not just at international level, I mean in general. He has averaged what, 14 games per year all in? His last few years has been better, hes managed 20, 22 or so, but that only serves to bring his average up.

He really is one dimensional, and hes never managed to have a run of good performances, for a man in his 30's, who's held in such high regard, that's crazy.

I think hes part of the problem of Englands centre issues for a decade.

Until recently Manu was a 13 so not really the issue at 12, not having an English qualified 12 in the prem who look
Great etc, on paper Slades attributes would have better served him at 12 but for what ever reason him/Exe just never seemed to make that work. Devoto could have been ok at one point but again spent lots of time injured, Tomkins, I'm pretty sure Alex Lozowski has played some 12 as well. These all would have been experimental although no more so than OF I have to say, there does appear to be a few youngsters who could fix this which would be refreshing.

 

[dirty harry]

Until recently Manu was a 13 so not really the issue at 12, not having an English qualified 12 in the prem who look
Great etc, on paper Slades attributes would have better served him at 12 but for what ever reason him/Exe just never seemed to make that work. Devoto could have been ok at one point but again spent lots of time injured, Tomkins, I'm pretty sure Alex Lozowski has played some 12 as well. These all would have been experimental although no more so than OF I have to say, there does appear to be a few youngsters who could fix this which would be refreshing.

It's interesting that the home nation with the greatest player pool struggles to fill what is probably the simplest position in the backline to master.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying 12 is easy, but it doesnt have the decision making responsibilities of 10 or 13, it isnt key in defence, and one could argue you could hide an average player there, as long as you dont play Smith who you need to hide out wide.


I mean look at some players who have excelled in the 12 Jersey, Danty currently, De Allande, previously Robert's. BIG physical men with limited skillsets. Hell we dont all rave about Tuisovas distribution, defensive coordination, or decision making under pressure lol


I think that's why Farrell doesnt suit, hes a leader, he wants responsibility, he wants to make decisions and lead from the front, Tuilagi is probably the best bet for 2.5 games until hes out for the rest of the season again

 

[Jimbo]

It's interesting that the home nation with the greatest player pool struggles to fill what is probably the simplest position in the backline to master.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying 12 is easy, but it doesnt have the decision making responsibilities of 10 or 13, it isnt key in defence, and one could argue you could hide an average player there, as long as you dont play Smith who you need to hide out wide.


I mean look at some players who have excelled in the 12 Jersey, Danty currently, De Allande, previously Robert's. BIG physical men with limited skillsets. Hell we dont all rave about Tuisovas distribution, defensive coordination, or decision making under pressure lol


I think that's why Farrell doesnt suit, hes a leader, he wants responsibility, he wants to make decisions and lead from the front, Tuilagi is probably the best bet for 2.5 games until hes out for the rest of the season again

I think this is it, we have had quite a lot of non English 12s in the prem, the ones that have been Burrell, Whitten, great club players but simply won't cut it at international, I'm not sure if for what ever reason players with the athletic/physical attributes get played else where early on, a case could be made for the likes of Ben Earl (Sam from Exe played 8, surname escaped me now, but similar mold) suiting that but ended up playing In the pack, on a similar note Theo Dan played in the centres (not sure if 12 and 13) according to his interview on the inside line, I'm not saying they should now be moved back but things like this might in part explain the lack of options.

 

[Which Tyler]

Be fair, the English system has also developed a few international quality ICs - it's just that they chose Wales or Scotland instead.
We've also had an excess of FHs at age-grade, where the coaches try to force them into a squad regardless, meaning less age-grade time for more natural ICs (and FBs) to develop and catch eyes, whilst those who could play either centre berth, get much of their early game time at OC.

Despite that, we've still got Dan Kelly (unless he decides to be Irish), Max Ojomoh (behind an England developed Scot), and Seb Atkinson (Herefordshire, so a good chance of some Welsh ancestry) with Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (unless he decides to be Tongan) and Olly Hartley (unless he decides to be... Welsh again isn't it?) coming through.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Annoying thing is that 12 can be anything you want - playmaker, bosher or general buzzy irritant like Tompkins. Why we've never been able to nail it down is a mystery.

As for Manu, when he burst on the scene he was a freakish powerhouse. That was over a decade ago and subsequently others have matched or overtaken him in the power stakes while he's been a bit diminished by injuries. Worth a squad place, but he's not the point of difference player he was. All round game has developed a bit, but not to the extent of others.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Manu has lost weight and is definitely not as powerful as he used to be. Even when he was at his peak he wasnt very good at passing the ball.

 

[dirty harry]

Annoying thing is that 12 can be anything you want - playmaker, bosher or general buzzy irritant like Tompkins. Why we've never been able to nail it down is a mystery.

As for Manu, when he burst on the scene he was a freakish powerhouse. That was over a decade ago and subsequently others have matched or overtaken him in the power stakes while he's been a bit diminished by injuries. Worth a squad place, but he's not the point of difference player he was. All round game has developed a bit, but not to the extent of others.

I think this is a pertinent point, depending how you play 12 has a varied option of strengths.

I personally dont hate the Ford Farell 2 playmakers left and right of the scrum, it offers kicking and ball playing options, and IMO allows eager wingers to play off either sides shoulder.

The problem becomes focus in attack, and ball carrying, imagine being Youngs and both players are demanding the ball, for different reasons, maybe it's a case of too many cooks?

I think 12 takes a bit of time, look at Tompkins, getting plaudits now, but it's been 2 seasons of wild headless chicken play, hes always been a great ball carrier, but he leaves his position in the defensive line, he takes on too much and just constantly over plays.

Against Fiji he gave George North a nightmare, North never knew where he was at any point, for the 2nd try, and the Radrada drop Tompkins didnt enter the line, let alone come off it hard, he corner flagged lol.

He finally looked disciplined against Aus, and it settled our entire backline.

I think maybe that's what England need, just to settle someone in there for a period and let the backline grow as an organism?

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

I think this is a pertinent point, depending how you play 12 has a varied option of strengths.

I personally dont hate the Ford Farell 2 playmakers left and right of the scrum, it offers kicking and ball playing options, and IMO allows eager wingers to play off either sides shoulder.

The problem becomes focus in attack, and ball carrying, imagine being Youngs and both players are demanding the ball, for different reasons, maybe it's a case of too many cooks?

I think 12 takes a bit of time, look at Tompkins, getting plaudits now, but it's been 2 seasons of wild headless chicken play, hes always been a great ball carrier, but he leaves his position in the defensive line, he takes on too much and just constantly over plays.

Against Fiji he gave George North a nightmare, North never knew where he was at any point, for the 2nd try, and the Radrada drop Tompkins didnt enter the line, let alone come off it hard, he corner flagged lol.

He finally looked disciplined against Aus, and it settled our entire backline.

I think maybe that's what England need, just to settle someone in there for a period and let the backline grow as an organism?

During the two seasons of "headless chicken" play do you think there was any Welsh players who were making a case for Tompkins to be dropped and replaced by them or do you think a decision was made to stick with him until he came good or maybe the good he was doing outweighed the other flaws in his game at that time.I think this is the problem that England may have,I personally think ford/Farrell/manu is Englands best current option but there is not really anyone coming through who is playing well enough at club level to demand changes at international level for England.I think international jerseys should be earned rather than just shoehorning someone in hoping it might work.But obviously in the case your making for Tompkins he has obviously improved his international form based on maybe getting the experience.