[RWC2019][Semi-Final 1] England vs. New Zealand (26/10/2019)

[james5000]

Why do you think TJ is better than Aaron?

They both have their pluses and minuses,
I like TJ as more of a physical presence on defence and added ball carrying ability. Almost like a 4th loosie,
I think he has had a better running game, Smith needs to run the ball more he is very dynamic when he does.

I think he can basically match him for speed to the ruck and ball clearing/passing speed.

They are both great players mind you, I just felt like Aaron has been looking a little bit old. Maybe lost a step, which has meant TJ's advantages have surpassed him.

If Aaron can wind back the clock like last week consistently than he is a worthy number 1.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Yeah that's the whole problem - England have the potential to be very poor if we go down a gear or so, which relatively speaking NZ just don't have.

Wow, according to Espn NZ conceded 13 penalties against Ireland!

I guess Nige forgot that we are meant to get away with everything!

 

[Cooper]

They both have their pluses and minuses,
I like TJ as more of a physical presence on defence and added ball carrying ability. Almost like a 4th loosie,
I think he has had a better running game, Smith needs to run the ball more he is very dynamic when he does.

I think he can basically match him for speed to the ruck and ball clearing/passing speed.

They are both great players mind you, I just felt like Aaron has been looking a little bit old. Maybe lost a step, which has meant TJ's advantages have surpassed him.

If Aaron can wind back the clock like last week consistently than he is a worthy number 1.

Yeah, I agree those are the qualities TJ has over A.Smith, but you forgot to mention Aaron's best qualities: His pass and decision making.

For me these trump TJ's physicality qualities, especially in our new system. I still agree he's good going into the final third of the game, but I want Steve to use his wonderful tactical brain and acknowledge if we are behind and we need quick good ball and fast precise decision making, to stick with Aaron. If we need a bit of muscle we can roll with TJ, but honestly, Aaron is the better player, always has been, always will be.

 

[40/20]

Yeah, I agree those are the qualities TJ has over A.Smith, but you forgot to mention Aaron's best qualities: His pass and decision making.

For me these trump TJ's physicality qualities, especially in our new system. I still agree he's good going into the final third of the game, but I want Steve to use his wonderful tactical brain and acknowledge if we are behind and we need quick good ball and fast precise decision making, to stick with Aaron. If we need a bit of muscle we can roll with TJ, but honestly, Aaron is the better player, always has been, always will be.

Yes I agree. Smith at his best is a far better option for us. He's been well below his best for the last 12 months though so fair enough that TJ's stocks have risen. But we saw he still has the goods last week, providing the forwards lay a good platform. Still has the best pass in the country.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Scott Barret is one of those guys like Reuben Thorne and Jonno gibbes who isn't quite a lock and isn't quite a 6, he's somewhere in between. He is more athletic than either of those two though, but not as smart.

... thats who we're comparing him too and we're still starting him in a world cup semi final?.....not exactly contenders for "All Black Greats" are they

 

[40/20]

... thats who we're comparing him too and we're still starting him in a world cup semi final?.....not exactly contenders for "All Black Greats" are they

Ha that's what I was thinking... he's streets ahead of both of them.

But for what it's worth I thought Reuben was unfairly maligned for much of his career too. Wasn't flashy and didnt intimidate like Collins or Kaino, but certainly didnt deserve the ridicule he always seemed to attract IMO.

 

[Cooper]

To be fair to Thorne, he was used as a bit of scapegoat for 2003, but in hindsight, we had no chance of winning the RWC, Aussie and England were easily the better sides in the world at that time.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i dont think he deserved ridicule....but he is the text book case of a great super rugby player that got elevated to the AB's for something other than his skill, good captain/leader...but a captain should be picked from players of international level

 

[Cooper]

i dont think he deserved ridicule....but he is the text book case of a great super rugby player that got elevated to the AB's for something other than his skill, good captain/leader...but a captain should be picked from players of international level

Do you think Taine was of the same 'vein'? I agree though, I think it's a succession thing. After this world cup, I'd like to see Whitelock captain if they think he can make the 2023 RWC.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Do you think Taine was of the same 'vein'? I agree though, I think it's a succession thing. After this world cup, I'd like to see Whitelock captain if they think he can make the 2023 RWC.

I think Taine had the chops to cut it as an AB but i also know im bias and that lots of people dont

I'd like someone young to be given the mantle whilst there are some old hats around to help guide them rather than change it every few years...who?...no idea off the top of my head

 

[Cooper]

I think Taine had the chops to cut it as an AB but i also know im bias and that lots of people dont

I'd like someone young to be given the mantle whilst there are some old hats around to help guide them rather than change it every few years...who?...no idea off the top of my head

I'm a little bit worried about our leadership group in the next cycle, we don't have clear and obvious leaders emerging just yet, so that's why I think Whitelock to see them through another 4 years, similar to what Read has done recently to see if there's something coming through that deserves the captaincy at a younger age. I think Jacobson could be a candidate.

 

[40/20]

i dont think he deserved ridicule....but he is the text book case of a great super rugby player that got elevated to the AB's for something other than his skill, good captain/leader...but a captain should be picked from players of international level

Agree with your last point... but thinking back to his last season as full-time captain in 03, I'm struggling to think of who would've been better at 6? Collins was only in his second season as an All Black from memory, and was playing 8.

It was a long time ago, and maybe there were others in Super rugby who were being pushed, but I cant remember myself.

For me, Thorne's lack of recognition was a reflection of Mitchell's coaching philosophy at the time. It was very much run-and-gun with little emphasis on gaining ascendancy - or even parity - up front and instead just recycling as quickly as possible and getting the ball to the backs. Which works fine until a team manages to slow your ball down as the English did in Welly that year and the Wallabies did in the semi. But as a tight loosie, Thorn was never going to shine (individually) in that structure.

 

[40/20]

I'm a little bit worried about our leadership group in the next cycle, we don't have clear and obvious leaders emerging just yet, so that's why I think Whitelock to see them through another 4 years, similar to what Read has done recently to see if there's something coming through that deserves the captaincy at a younger age. I think Jacobson could be a candidate.

Sam Cane? He's only 27-28 isnt he?

Might be in for a fight with Ardie for a starting spot, but depends on how the next coaching group want to structure the loose trio after Read moves on.

 

[Cooper]

Sam Cane? He's only 27-28 isnt he?

Might be in for a fight with Ardie for a starting spot, but depends on how the next coaching group want to structure the loose trio after Read moves on.

Sam had a few outings for us as captain, but never really pushed the envelope. I still very much see him as a bit of kid mentally leadership wise.

 

[40/20]

Sam had a few outings for us as captain, but never really pushed the envelope. I still very much see him as a bit of kid mentally leadership wise.

Really? He's led the Chiefs for a few seasons hasnt he?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ah the thread has been completely Kiweed.

 

[Cooper]

Really? He's led the Chiefs for a few seasons hasnt he?

Yeah, always felt Michael Leitch has helped him a lot though. But if Sam gets the nod over Whitelock, I won't complain.

 

[Cooper]

Ah the thread has been completely Kiweed.

Surely a rarity around these neck of the woods

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Ah the thread has been completely Kiweed.

now you know how we feel when we wake up and theres four or five pages of english banter...about the actual game no less!

 

[Reiser99]

They both have their pluses and minuses,
I like TJ as more of a physical presence on defence and added ball carrying ability. Almost like a 4th loosie,
I think he has had a better running game, Smith needs to run the ball more he is very dynamic when he does.

I think he can basically match him for speed to the ruck and ball clearing/passing speed.

They are both great players mind you, I just felt like Aaron has been looking a little bit old. Maybe lost a step, which has meant TJ's advantages have surpassed him.

If Aaron can wind back the clock like last week consistently than he is a worthy number 1.

I'm not expert on NZ but TJ has thrown some right crap this tournament. Smith is a far better passer than him personally. I think it was the Canada game where TJ was just holding back the NZ attack with his atrocious passing.