[RWC2019][Pool C] Round 4 - England vs. France (12/10/2019) *MATCH CANCELLED DUE TO BAD WEATHER*

[spartan32]

What is all this "dead rubber" ********. This is the World Cup. Momentum is everything. If we can't turn over a flaky French side who have struggle with nearly every team so far it would not bode well for us. I also prefer a QF v Australia. They aren't looking great either and would ease us into the semis; rather than a fired up and strong looking Wales who always have an extra 10% plus in the tank when they play us. SA will Do for them.

We've got some great strength in depth when it comes to our forwards and so should roll out whatever our A team is safe in the knowledge that we can afford to lose most of them. In fact the only person that would worry me would be George. Cant afford to lose him.

think Billy V has been playing like cack. A shadow of his former self. Ludlum looks much sharper and up for it. Billy looks knackered. Maybe the injury absence has taken its toll, or maybe he's just not really back to fitness. Either way we can live without him as it stands.

key players going forward who we can't really afford to lose as they just can't be replaced. Manu, Faz, George. Lose any one of those and we might be in trouble. The rest pretty much have a replacement who can just as easily fill their shoes to a similar standard.

this France game will be the first real test and we need to see whether we are really ready for the knockouts, or whether we are in trouble.

 

[Grizwald]

Dead rubber my foot. Correct me if I'm wrong but no team that has lost in the groups has gone on to win the WC. You can see why with momentum etc as already mentioned. I think Jones would have taken another 8 if there were in his eyes a decent option. Hughes for his size flatters to decieve him getting driven back in contact by Faf De Klerk in the South African series case in point. Morgan was probably the closest to Billy V levels of carrying but don't think he's had a look in under Jones. Currt filled in at the weekend rather than Ludlum, strange as may as well have taken Mercer who can play 8 and 6.

 

[Which Tyler]

Dead rubber in terms of both sides already being through to the QFs.
Both sides will want to win, and both will want to put out strong sides. Both sides would rather win and have a "tougher" QF draw (which it really isn't) than lose to "buy" an "easier side of the draw.

But, if you're going to rest 1-2 big players, whether to manage their game time, allow recovery from a ****le they could play through, or whatever else - it's an opportunity now, but won't be after this match.

 

[Tayga]

Venue: International Stadium Yokohama
Time: 10:15 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

[/QUOTE]

Injuries aside, I'd suggest the same team as I suggested for yesterday.

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Kris
6. Ludlam
7. Underhill
8. Wilson

9. Heinz
10. Ford
11. May
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie, 17. MVunipola, 18. Cole, 19. Lawes, 20. Curry
21. Youngs, 22. Slade, 23. Daly

Rationale:
Mako would start IF he'd had more gametime yesterday
Marler needs a rest, especially after picking up a knock. QF is more important for him than this dead rubber.
I so wish we had a better option than Cole, ideally a 3rd THP in Japan (only ever needed 2 of Slade, Francis, Nowell and McConnochie)
Curry has played 240 minutes in 3 matches so far. My instinct is to start and aim to replace him, butnid rather not risk him having to play another 80.
Billy still needs a rocket, and possibly a rest; as mentioned above, a ****le gives a public excuse (as does rotation TBH)

Heinz is simply playing better than Young's
Farrell needs a rocket based on the RWC so far, and after yesterday, needs to go through RTP protocols. Again, the QF is more important for him than a dead rubber.
As ever, I wish Slade had 50 club matches at IC under his belt. At least Manu has been training there for England for the last year or so. Francis simply isn't one of our top 4 centres and shouldn't even be at the RWC
Nowell did enough to overtake Coka
Harsh to put Daly to the bench after his first good game at FB, but... he's still not a FB, and it's be even harsher to drop Watson. He and Curry are our only players to have played every minute so far.

 

[Scotty]

Right finally got round to watching France vs Tonga. (Spoilers below for that game)




I now stand by my earlier team, start with mako slade and nowell starting. They need game time and watching France they havnt put in a top performance yet, im not being funny but on their form we can rest players for QF, France JUST edged Tonga by 1 score.

Can people stop calling our pool the pool of death. Argentina playing like a top level tier 2 team rather than 1 and France are playing like a crap tier 1 team(flashes of brilliance but not world beaters by any means on this form.)

 

[Tayga]

I would play (starter/finisher)

Mako/Genge
LCD/Singleton
Cole/Sinks
Launch
Kruis/Itoje
Ludlam
Wilson
Underhill /Lawes
Heinz/ Young's
Ford
Manu
JJ/Slade
Nowell/ Mc Connochie
coka
Daly or Watson

Rationale

BV/Farrel/Curry/Marler/George all need rest for different reasons And these players now get a welcome 2 week break effectively so keeping them "fresh" for hopefully another three games.
I also want to see a manu/JJ axe rapier centre combination in operation.
We know what the FF axis can do but the France game is a good way to vary our tactical approach and test a different game plan.
England by 10 points

 

[spartan32]

so apparently Billy is how a doubt for the France game. The question is, does that really matter? In fact is Billy, on his current form, really a loss at all? Sure, last season he was on top form, building to being a world class player. But since his return from injury he's been sluggish, and very average. The aura of "unstoppable wrecking ball" is starting to wane, and I would imagine that oppositions won't be nearly as worried about him.

I know that there is a the Beka that we lack ball carriers, but I'm not so sure that's true. I haven't checked stats but Curry and Underhill seem to carry very well into contact. Then there's Sinckler, Mako (if he's fit) Itoje, and Manu. Nowell is pretty handy when carrying into traffic and could be brought off the wing to do just that if needed. And then theres Ludlum, who is looking really good. Just imagine him with a couple of seasons under his belt.

Then there's England game plan, which seems to be built around kick chase, territory, and set piece platforms. Pin the opposition back in their 22 and harass them at the line out, which, given the quality of jumpers we have, and driving maul skills, is a sensible approach.

So I'd suggest we aren't in that desperate need of Billy's carrying, he's doesn't seem to be a leader in the team, so unless he bucks up it should be time
He takes a back seat.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

So are either team bothering to put up full sides? It's a dead rubber and arguably either side of draw is just as difficult from a Group C point of view.

I'd like us to win and winning mentality and all. But I'd rather we didn't bust a gut trying to lay down a marker or something against Tier 1 sides.

surely France need more cohesion, so they should definitely play their top team. There's no point saving their fitness for the final when they are not odds on to win the quarter. A better bet to get practice in prior to the quarter.

england on the other hand, if I were them I'd play my second team.

What is all this "dead rubber" ********. This is the World Cup. Momentum is everything. If we can't turn over a flaky French side who have struggle with nearly every team so far it would not bode well for us. I also prefer a QF v Australia. They aren't looking great either and would ease us into the semis; rather than a fired up and strong looking Wales who always have an extra 10% plus in the tank when they play us. SA will Do for them.

We've got some great strength in depth when it comes to our forwards and so should roll out whatever our A team is safe in the knowledge that we can afford to lose most of them. In fact the only person that would worry me would be George. Cant afford to lose him.

think Billy V has been playing like cack. A shadow of his former self. Ludlum looks much sharper and up for it. Billy looks knackered. Maybe the injury absence has taken its toll, or maybe he's just not really back to fitness. Either way we can live without him as it stands.

key players going forward who we can't really afford to lose as they just can't be replaced. Manu, Faz, George. Lose any one of those and we might be in trouble. The rest pretty much have a replacement who can just as easily fill their shoes to a similar standard.

this France game will be the first real test and we need to see whether we are really ready for the knockouts, or whether we are in trouble.

I agree momentum is (nearly) everything, but it might be worth the risk of losing the quarter by not having momentum going into it, if you manage to rest players hence are able to keep momentum all the way through til the 80th minute in the final.

 

[Goodey]

If England played a second team and they got jumped by France I don't think it'd ever be lived down.

France beat us 18 months ago and are 3 wins from 3 as well. It's going to be a proper test match.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I've mentioned this before with various responses, but a player that uses the crash ball can be stopped the best 8s in the world have a variety of options Teichman, Zinzan Brook, Reid, Faletau, even Mervin Davies. all had more than one string to their bow, billy is a crash ball player take that away and he's just another big lump going nowhere. sorry about the spelling

 

[Umaga's Witness]

If England played a second team and they got jumped by France I don't think it'd ever be lived down.

France beat us 18 months ago and are 3 wins from 3 as well. It's going to be a proper test match.

It would be lived down if you won the World Cup I presume?

 

[Grizwald]

so apparently Billy is how a doubt for the France game. The question is, does that really matter? In fact is Billy, on his current form, really a loss at all? Sure, last season he was on top form, building to being a world class player. But since his return from injury he's been sluggish, and very average. The aura of "unstoppable wrecking ball" is starting to wane, and I would imagine that oppositions won't be nearly as worried about him.

I know that there is a the Beka that we lack ball carriers, but I'm not so sure that's true. I haven't checked stats but Curry and Underhill seem to carry very well into contact. Then there's Sinckler, Mako (if he's fit) Itoje, and Manu. Nowell is pretty handy when carrying into traffic and could be brought off the wing to do just that if needed. And then theres Ludlum, who is looking really good. Just imagine him with a couple of seasons under his belt.

Then there's England game plan, which seems to be built around kick chase, territory, and set piece platforms. Pin the opposition back in their 22 and harass them at the line out, which, given the quality of jumpers we have, and driving maul skills, is a sensible approach.

So I'd suggest we aren't in that desperate need of Billy's carrying, he's doesn't seem to be a leader in the team, so unless he bucks up it should be time
He takes a back seat.

Yup I'd ageee if there's any doubt I'd leave him out. Don't know what it is with him hopefully it's just form on the palying side of things but he's looked really lethargic. Seen him get isolated and held up in the tackle several times this WC. Curry and Underhills carrying has been adequate, from what I've seen they have reasonable sucess getting over the gain line while not busting a huge amount of tabkles or making huge meterage. Ive not seen it much this WC with the route one, multiple ball carriers hitting the line at pace a la Ireland in the warm ups which looked really effective and hard to contain for the opposition. Maybe as it doesn't suit the glacial Youngs.....

 

[Goodey]

It would be lived down if you won the World Cup I presume?

Yeah ok. I'd take that.

 

[FLOBALOB]

All this talk of resting players is barmy as far as i'm concerned. With a possible 4 games to play to win the WC, they are hardly playing like world beaters atm, and need to step things up a bit v France not sit on their laurels. They wont do that by playing second string players. JG will have played 65 mins in 3 weeks,come saturday so i hardly think he needs a rest. Saying that I'd start LCD on sat. I also see no benefit in playing players who wont be involved in match 23. So for saturday I'd start a few bench players from last week.
Watson
Nowell
Slade
Manu
May
Farrel
Heinz
Wilson
Underhill
Curry
Lawes
Itoje
Cole
LCD
Mako

Genge/Marler
George
Sinckler
Kruis
Ludlam/BV
Youngs
Ford
Daly

 

[MikeTheNative]

I find it interesting a few others are starting to criticise Billy's performance. I was going to ask does anyone think he looks like he is carrying an injury? He's not making as much ground and beating as many defenders as he usually does.

 

[Jashay]

I also see no benefit in playing players who wont be involved in match 23.

I entirely agree with this, but I've got a slightly different take on it: barring injuries, I don't think we see Slade. What role does he play in a 23? He's a 13 who can cover FB, wing, and Fly Half.

If you assume we're going Ford-Faz, we've got two Fly Halves on the pitch. In my mind he's our third choice 13 after Manu and JJ. We've got 5 wingers in the squad, two of whom could also cover FB (Nowell and Watson). Nowell also covers 13.

Insane as it sounds, I'd be less surprised to see Francis than Slade because we're shorter on IC cover in my view. (That's mostly because I'm not super keen on using Manu as an IC.)

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

It's one of those games where speculating about the team is difficult because we simply don't have the data on the players that we need. More than ever I think Eddie needs to listen to what the boffins say about the physical condition of the players and how another game might affect their performance over a possible 3 knockout games. English Arrogance of course but I feel like a mostly second team could beat this France team and a loss wouldn't really be the end of the world (slightly harder QF but slightly easier SF).

 

[FLOBALOB]

I entirely agree with this, but I've got a slightly different take on it: barring injuries, I don't think we see Slade. What role does he play in a 23? He's a 13 who can cover FB, wing, and Fly Half.

If you assume we're going Ford-Faz, we've got two Fly Halves on the pitch. In my mind he's our third choice 13 after Manu and JJ. We've got 5 wingers in the squad, two of whom could also cover FB (Nowell and Watson). Nowell also covers 13.

Insane as it sounds, I'd be less surprised to see Francis than Slade because we're shorter on IC cover in my view. (That's mostly because I'm not super keen on using Manu as an IC.)

I'm not assuming we go Ford-Farrel .
I wouldnt think going back to Farrel-Manu- Slade ,as in 6N is entirely off the cards yet.

 

[Scotty]

I entirely agree with this, but I've got a slightly different take on it: barring injuries, I don't think we see Slade. What role does he play in a 23? He's a 13 who can cover FB, wing, and Fly Half.

If you assume we're going Ford-Faz, we've got two Fly Halves on the pitch. In my mind he's our third choice 13 after Manu and JJ. We've got 5 wingers in the squad, two of whom could also cover FB (Nowell and Watson). Nowell also covers 13.

Insane as it sounds, I'd be less surprised to see Francis than Slade because we're shorter on IC cover in my view. (That's mostly because I'm not super keen on using Manu as an IC.)

Our IC cover is shorter but Manu, Faz, Slade and Francais, francais will only be started in a KO game if we have a few injuries. So if he is used its becUse we just want to rest players.

On Manu, his best position is OC as a player but at IC he brings out the best of other players like Slade/JJ. For Slade he gives more time to run and put a winger in space or dummy and go himself. For JJ he creates space for him to to attack the gaps and have more success. He is key to our attack which is worrying


A point on Billy, everyone is criticising him, but he has a good workrate carrying and normally makes ground not carrying tight into 4 people but abit wider, run manu tight like that and he will be the same. When you watch Billy tribute vids its the carries abit wider where they cant just mark him with multiple players that he beats defenders and makes metres with his strength and leg drive, i think we are just using him abit wrong.

 

[NickBD]

Telegraph(Gavin Mairs I think) reporting EJ might rest some players against France.

In 2 minds about it, as we've all talked about having Argentina, France back to back did hurt England is resting playing in a tournament. Especially if England make it to final 5 tough games every 5 to 7 days would be a very tough ask. But on one hand I would rather face Australia.

I do think we'll see Genge, Launch, Slade, JJ, Nowell and big Joe start. With a mix of the starting 15 players, which is still good enough to beat France.