[RWC2019][Pool A] Round 1 - Ireland vs. Scotland (22/09/2019)

[General Melchett]

IMO the Scots have really gone backwards since replacing Vern Cotter with Gregor Townsend, his selections also boggle the mind a bit.

I have heard that all may not be well between the players and Townsend. There was the heated half time discussion at Twickenham earlier this year and yesterday the captain (Stuart McInally) failed to show at the post match presser. Townsend claimed he was 'too out of breath' which is odd seeing as he managed an on pitch interview minutes after the final whistle. Something ain't right. I wouldn't be surprised if Townsend quits or gets the boot after the RWC.

I also found it odd that neither Laidlaw nor Barclay skippered the side bearing in mind both have way more captaincy experience than the less vocal McInally.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Joe Schmidt is my favourite coach in world rugby. Just putting it out there

 

[General Melchett]

Joe Schmidt is my favourite coach in world rugby. Just putting it out there

Seconded. Brilliant coach and a true gent.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Our game is never going to be as expansive as the ABs, but I do worry about what will happen if our forwards can only get parity at best and we are left reliant on the creativity of our backs to generate metres and scores.

On the basis of the past... erm... 5 years (?), we'd be left in a difficult position.

Henshaw at 12 may help - but we're really needing a 2nd pivot somewhere. Barrett at 15 does that for the ABs. Le Roux to a degree does it for the boks from 15. Farrell at 12 does it for England, Giteau at 12 did it for the Wobblies.


We really don't have that at 12 or 15 and its why we won't win the Webb Ellis.

I reckon if we knew 3 years ago what we know now - the team would have been built toward; 10. Sexton, 15. Carbery, 22. Carty. But we are where we are and have to live with it.

I've changed my mind fairly recently and I don't think the dual playmaker is especially important. I haven't loved one since Sexton and Farrell, and Wilkinson and Giteau before that. For it to work you actually need two brilliant all round distributors rather than two guys who do the work of one between them and no one has that right now. Mo'unga is fairly so so and Barrett makes up for his deficiencies and vice versa so its a nice balance but nothing to elevate you ahead of having Sexton with Ringrose, Stockdale, Aki/Farrell/Henshaw at his disposal on its own. With George Ford you're playing with a halfman in attack, highly skilled yes but the absolute lack of power and pace means all he is is a distributor, Tuilagi counteracts it but its still not the dual playmaker working there.

I'll agree Schmidt is a bit lucky and Carbery at 12 or 15 would probably have been needed if you had a team with two or three playmakers of the level Carter and the Smiths provided NZ with 4 years ago but for now we have a sniff without it. Improvement and a bit of luck is needed, the Aussies winning on Sunday is the first instance of things out of our control that could work in our favour.

 

[big ginger 8]

I've changed my mind fairly recently and I don't think the dual playmaker is especially important. I haven't loved one since Sexton and Farrell, and Wilkinson and Giteau before that. For it to work you actually need two brilliant all round distributors rather than two guys who do the work of one between them and no one has that right now. Mo'unga is fairly so so and Barrett makes up for his deficiencies and vice versa so its a nice balance but nothing to elevate you ahead of having Sexton with Ringrose, Stockdale, Aki/Farrell/Henshaw at his disposal on its own. With George Ford you're playing with a halfman in attack, highly skilled yes but the absolute lack of power and pace means all he is is a distributor, Tuilagi counteracts it but its still not the dual playmaker working there.

I'll agree Schmidt is a bit lucky and Carbery at 12 or 15 would probably have been needed if you had a team with two or three playmakers of the level Carter and the Smiths provided NZ with 4 years ago but for now we have a sniff without it. Improvement and a bit of luck is needed, the Aussies winning on Sunday is the first instance of things out of our control that could work in our favour.

I think there's also the fact that our 9 is probably more of a playmaker than any none French scrumhalf and our favourite backline move let's Sexton be the second playmaker anyway, which mitigates it somewhat. I would like to see Ringrose brought into the role a bit more though.

 

[bushytop]

This was a colossally disappointing game... For weeks, the "experts" were saying, "Ya never know, don't sleep on the Scots, this is a great matchup, this is good timing, this is a game they can steal," and on and on. I kept thinking, "Well, I know I'm a noob, but the Scotland I've seen recently don't look like a team that can hang with the big boys, but maybe..." Naturally, I let my expectations build up, then they took a huge dump on the field. Three points total? Oh my word, what a mess.

Sadly for your sake Dave, this is your future as a Scotland fan !

Without wanting to dance on their grave... if there is one team that flatters to deceive it's the jocks. Although fair play to you for being realistic (uncharacteristically so for a Scotland fan) going into the game against Ireland. I remember how hopeful you (and Scotland in general) were going into the 6 Nations and it never ceases to amaze me how regardless of how many times they get badly beaten, 'hope' really does spring eternal in the glens.

You'll still qualify... but then it's the All Blacks !

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sadly for your sake Dave, this is your future as a Scotland fan !

Without wanting to dance on their grave... if there is one team that flatters to deceive it's the jocks. Although fair play to you for being realistic (uncharacteristically so for a Scotland fan) going into the game against Ireland. I remember how hopeful you (and Scotland in general) were going into the 6 Nations and it never ceases to amaze me how regardless of how many times they get badly beaten, 'hope' really does spring eternal in the glens.

You'll still qualify... but then it's the All Blacks !

"Every Six Nations, Scotland talk themselves up. Every Autumn Internationals: 'Ah we're going to get a big win against one of the big nations, where does that confidence come from?" - Stephen Ferris

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why is Stephen Ferris giving them so much confidence?

 

[bushytop]

Why is Stephen Ferris giving them so much confidence?

Cracked me up

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Why is Stephen Ferris giving them so much confidence?

He retired, it increased Scotland's chances of winning a match more than anything they've done in 7 years!

 

[g6mcg]

Boring answer: The current Scotland team at least has a (small) chance of a victory against most teams. For a long time you were just guaranteed dire rugby and a 50/50 of beating Italy.

 

[Dai Perk]

Sadly for your sake Dave, this is your future as a Scotland fan !

(Sits down, takes a drink, gets ready for a long road ahead)
Word, I very much have that feeling. This elusive and/or deceptive Hope thing keeps getting foisted upon me despite my better judgement...
Realistically, is there a magic button that could 'fix' Scottish rugby? The nation's not getting any more populated, we're not the biggest lads, and the money invested can never approach England or France...
If I suddenly had $100 million to invest in Scottish Rugby, would it help? Or is this just Sisyphus writ large?

 

[bushytop]

(Sits down, takes a drink, gets ready for a long road ahead)
Word, I very much have that feeling. This elusive and/or deceptive Hope thing keeps getting foisted upon me despite my better judgement...
Realistically, is there a magic button that could 'fix' Scottish rugby? The nation's not getting any more populated, we're not the biggest lads, and the money invested can never approach England or France...
If I suddenly had $100 million to invest in Scottish Rugby, would it help? Or is this just Sisyphus writ large?

Well, (sits down next to you, and pours myself 3 fingers as this could be a long one) don't get me wrong, 100 mil invested in the right areas would be a great start but as you say population and continued investment are issues that will pretty much always be around. Similarly in Wales, where our population is about 2 1/2 mil short of the Scots and money is in even shorter supply.

The biggest problem in Scotland is rugby's popularity, although it does seem more popular now than it did about 10 years ago. Rugby didn't used to be particularly popular in Ireland either but fair play to them, they got their house in order across the Irish Sea. Scotland and Wales should really use Ireland as a template (as much as possible, I mean no two countries are identical).

I often play out the mental fantasy of, what would I do if I won the Euromillions lottery (nearly 200 mil tonight folks )... and it's fixing Welsh rugby everytime. The first thing you would have to accept is the possibility of losing that money if you were gonna try and 'fix' things... I personally would happily lose it all if I had a chance of making a real sustainable change.

There'd be absolutely no point in giving the money to the union or the clubs, you'd need to invest in the kids. I'd personally build a few super-colleges, stock them with the finest New Zealand and South African Head Masters and Rugby coaches (as well as high quality teaching staff that covers all of the curriculum) and then fill the things with scholarships. Basically offer today's youth a way out of the poverty that is Welsh Society via a top-notch education... and World Class Rugby education.

Now, 'I ain't no edukator' but it's my 200 mil so, I'll do it my way, I would restructure all (possible) curriculum subjects (Math, English, Biology, physics etc) to 'incorporate' rugby within their learning ie Math problems could be posed as if within a Rugby paradigm:

'If a winger receives the ball on halfway and close to the touch line, while traveling at 'x' and the last defender is 30 metres in field and 5 metres behind the 10 metre line chasing him/her at a speed of 'y' at what point on the field will they meet?'

Now the above is extremely simplified but you get my drift. It would be a tough balance to ensure that both the necessary curriculum is met but also presented in a paradigm that positively affects the child's thinking in regards to Rugby... but that is why I would PAY.

Now there would still be the problem of sustainability as my 200 mil would quickly run out, so you'd have to get 'buy-in' from the National Union, which wouldn't be easy but in my pipe-dream, I eventually win them over just before my pot ran dry .

... and there would probably be like a 1% chance that ANY of this wouldn't actually just evolve into one massive cluster-frikk! I'd have an awesome few years trying to make it work though .

 

[BobbyM]

"Every Six Nations, Scotland talk themselves up. Every Autumn Internationals: 'Ah we're going to get a big win against one of the big nations, where does that confidence come from?" - Stephen Ferris

Probably from beating most of the big nations in relatively recent years in games at murrayfield (south Africa, Australia England wales Ireland)...

Ferris is a troll

 

[Reiser99]

One of Scotland's biggest problems has been separating ambition from genuine achievable targets to measure and sustain progress.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/26194618

Dodson set Scotland the target of winning the 6Ns and World Cup back in 2015. Yes they had a chance, but it wasn't a realistic target for a side that had repeatedly come bottom or close to bottom in the 6Ns for 10-15 years. Scotland had some fantastic players that year and should have got to the semis, but winning it was a target they were never going to achieve, it was setting them up to fail.

Problem is fans and pundits are also guilty of it by often talking up Scotland's chances often exaggerated through national pride. I have no problem with being hopeful or ambitious, but it needs to be tempered with reality and sometimes that it lacking when people discuss Scotland.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Probably from beating most of the big nations in relatively recent years in games at murrayfield (south Africa, Australia England wales Ireland)...

Ferris is a troll

South Africa - 2010
Australia - 2017 x2
Ireland - 2017
Wales - 2017
England - 2018

Apart from South Africa that looks ok but with the exception of Australia you have to go back to 2013 for the previous win over any of those teams and their best 6 nations finish is third, they've beaten the three longest serving tier 1 coaches, Gatland, Hansen and Schmidt, a total of two times.
Scotland have to be respected, if you don't show up they can beat you. But the constant bold claims from their camp that they're going to win this and win that get laughed at more than taken they get taken seriously, Andrew Trimble and Barry Murphy were saying it's all a bit ridiculous too. These are all recent players who are still in touch with the current internationals, the opinion I'd worth something.
Now, I'm not saying for a second Scotland shouldn't think they can win anything, that'd be worse but when they fairly consistently end up with egg on their face a new media strategy might need to be considered.
I'm not trying to kick you when your down here either, this started with Dave saying how different things being said in the media were lulled him in to being massively hopeful and bushy saying he's a Scotland fan, get used to it!

 

[Umaga's Witness]

This was a colossally disappointing game... For weeks, the "experts" were saying, "Ya never know, don't sleep on the Scots, this is a great matchup, this is good timing, this is a game they can steal," and on and on. I kept thinking, "Well, I know I'm a noob, but the Scotland I've seen recently don't look like a team that can hang with the big boys, but maybe..." Naturally, I let my expectations build up, then they took a huge dump on the field. Three points total? Oh my word, what a mess.

But unfortunately you have to watch the possible upsets to catch the one that happens. You don't want to miss japan beating South Africa. I don't think we'll get any decent upsets this World Cup though, would be an upset if we did.

 

[BobbyM]

So a few points;

I have no problem with Scotland players believing they CAN win trophies; what is the alternative? Not believing they can win it. Having read Hogg's comments they are, to me at least, very mild and don't contain any of the bullish claims that are being suggested above.

He didn't go out and say Scotland will win the World Cup or anything like that. However, a lot of the press (inc for some reason a number of the Irish press contingent) seem to jump on what he said as being arrogant or too optimistic. I say Irish press as I've seen it mostly from the likes of Ferris as mentioned above or the 2nd captains lads. The press now appear to search for a quote about Scotland player showing any sort of confidence and ham it up to play into the narrative of "egg on their face", which is a bit frustrating.

So we can say what we currently do, which as above I think is minor, we can say nothing or we can be downbeat. Now with media commitments as they are I am not sure the middle option is feasible, so we're left with either being the stereotypical "dour jocks" or "arrogant and egg on our face" - it's no win really.

And the list of teams you mention could've been a route for Scotland to the final so it wasn't outside the realms of possibility for Scotland to make progress through the tournament.

 

[ncurd]

I think the issue has been Hogg has previous in this regard and then made to look very foolish. This kind of thing comes out his trap a lot and he should be focused on his own teams performance rather than what people are saying. Prove people wrong on the field then talk ******** don't lose to Ireland and talk shite when you have two games you have to win and will like a prize idiot if you lose (unlikely).

 

[BobbyM]

What was it he said though that irked so many people? Genuine question as appreciate I'm biased in the situation so struggle to see it from the outside.