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RWC: All Blacks - France (24-09-2011, 15:30)

With SBW. There was that one stage in the 2nd half where AB's and weepu were under pressure at the scrum and the ball was messy. Ball was kicked up field, I think it was even SBW that kicked it and he sprinted after it and got himself a bit isolated. I thought to myself if he doesn't make this tackle he will have really screwed up but he made it and it was actually very impressive. French winger stepped and tried to sprint around him but SBW followed and tackled him, showed good speed.

I honestly have no reservations about SBW on the wing after these two games. I did have a couple before that. But positionally he's fine, defense he's fine - actually quite good. And on attack he's obviously been very good.
 
Now, to my fellow NZ posters... still any doubt about SBW on the wing? Or now is it going to be "He has to play against Aus/SA for me to be convince"... because I believe someone said Clerc/Medard were going to turn him inside out...

I thought SBW's played well again on the wing, but I'm still not sure how he will go in a pressure game. Not saying he will struggle, just that he hasn't really been tested yet. France didn't get a lot of clean ball, so SBW had limited work to do defensively on the wing (he did fine on the few times he had to defend though), and if I recall correctly he wasn't tested at all under the high ball. It is very easy to look good when there is not much pressure on you and your team is going forward (Zac Guildford looked a brilliant player versus Fiji and South Africa B)). It will be interesting to see whether the AB's selectors think he has done enough to secure himself a bench spot (ahead of probably Toeava) come quarter-final time.
 
I thought SBW's played well again on the wing, but I'm still not sure how he will go in a pressure game. Not saying he will struggle, just that he hasn't really been tested yet. France didn't get a lot of clean ball, so SBW had limited work to do defensively on the wing (he did fine on the few times he had to defend though), and if I recall correctly he wasn't tested at all under the high ball. It is very easy to look good when there is not much pressure on you and your team is going forward (Zac Guildford looked a brilliant player versus Fiji and South Africa B)). It will be interesting to see whether the AB's selectors think he has done enough to secure himself a bench spot (ahead of probably Toeava) come quarter-final time.

This is exactly what my point has been since the beginning of time... Within a well structured team, it's going to be very hard for him to look as bad as most are hoping. And it's not like he's riding the team at all. He took two defenders out and gave the offload to Carter which spawned the midfield break and resulted in Dagg's try. The same again from the scrum where Carter put him into space and he made alot of yardage there. So he's definitely not taking a free ride, he is putting in the work.

My one b**** about the All Blacks though is, Why name someone at 8 if they're not going to play there??.. If Thomson isn't sufficient enough to be playing at the back of the scrum then why take Richie out of his prime focus so he can piggy back Thomson. If that's going to be the case, get rid of Thomson all together and put Vito back into the mix.. I believe [and I could be incorrect] our first infringement came from a silly Thomson penalty??.. He's just too prone to penalites for me.

And hopefully now the rest of the world are going to stop going on about the All Black scrum. Or are we going to get slaughtered against Canada, Argentina, South Africa/Australia and England/Ireland as well?
 
And hopefully now the rest of the world are going to stop going on about the All Black scrum. Or are we going to get slaughtered against Canada, Argentina, South Africa/Australia and England/Ireland as well?

It was exactly what I expected it to be against a second string french front row. You could be demolished by the Aussies though. *EDIT* The last sentence may contain sarcasm*EDIT*
 
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It was exactly what I expected it to be against a second string french front row. You could be demolished by the Aussies though.

Excuse me? On what evidence do you base the notion that Australia's scrum could 'demolish' anyone else's scrum?
 
And hopefully now the rest of the world are going to stop going on about the All Black scrum. Or are we going to get slaughtered against Canada, Argentina, South Africa/Australia and England/Ireland as well?
I take that as a direct offense towards the French and the Welsh (specially as I see the Welsh as favorites over the Irish)
 
I take that as a direct offense towards the French and the Welsh (specially as I see the Welsh as favorites over the Irish)

Getting a bit sensitive aren't we...TRF ain't Tiddlywinks! People are allowed to have an opinion on who might win a game (just like your opinion the welsh are favorites). After Irelands domination of the Aussie scrum and Aussie being identified as being able to demolish our scrum (even sarcastically ;) ) I think a comparison to the Irish as logical.

As for SBW, i still worry he pops up in midfield too much (when playing on the wing), will he be on the end of the line when we need him to be or will it be Ali Williams!</SPAN>
 
My one b**** about the All Blacks though is, Why name someone at 8 if they're not going to play there??.. If Thomson isn't sufficient enough to be playing at the back of the scrum then why take Richie out of his prime focus so he can piggy back Thomson. If that's going to be the case, get rid of Thomson all together and put Vito back into the mix.. I believe [and I could be incorrect] our first infringement came from a silly Thomson penalty??.. He's just too prone to penalites for me.

I agree totally, and my eyes popped out when I read JUSTIN MARSHALL this morning, listen to this crock of crap...
--------------
"Several players, notably Jane, Dan Carter, Adam Thomson and Israel Dagg, all had huge games against the French.


Thomson is becoming the obvious answer to our depth problems at No 8. With a concerted coaching effort I think he could make the position his own. He's big enough. He is a great lineout jumper, is quick off the base of the scrum and is a physical presence at the breakdown.


I have always thought No 8 was his best position and, let's face it, we don't have any depth in that area."
-------------

The one thing from that game is that Neither Thomson or McCaw are the answer to #8 and it was a mistake playing Thomson over Vito, or Messam, or heck even Kaino for that matter.

As far as #8 goes I'd rate Thomson behind Read, Vito, Messam, Manu, Heck maybe even Bourke/Lee/Peter Saili


Thompson does a LOT of work on defense and has great speed around the field, there is no denying it. But his defense isn't powerful (he makes a lot of tackles but more often than many AB defenders he gives away the advantage line unless he rushes) neither is his ball carrying and the ratio of penalties he gives away in comparison to the number of turnovers he wins is bad. in my opinion if I could pick one player I thought was most likely to give away a silly penalty to cost the AB's a game it would be Thomson and we've already seen it this year when he gave away 4 penalties for 0 turnovers against the Springboks in the 2nd tri nations test. Better players have been cut from the AB's for less yet it was Messam who didn't make a single mistake and did some good work in that game who was dropped.

I see physicality is critical and IMO the major area Thomson lacks, people have been bagging Tony Woodcock but watch what happens when he tackles people around the rucks. They stop dead in their tracks then go backwards. he only made about three less tackles than Thomson against France but his overall effect was much greater because when he tackles someone his teammates don't have to retreat to be ready for the next wave and it creates more chances for turnovers. As supporting forwards only need to go forward and not back before going forward to drive over the ball.

I think Thomson is still riding the wave from the one test when the AB's thrashed Australia a few years ago when he was impressive (on a day pretty much every player wearing black had a fantastic game). That and his lineout ability is carrying him IMO.

/rant off

on the other hand Kaino is riding a awesome wave of form so far. I think I said about a year ago that Kaino could end up being a more important player for the AB's than Jerry Collins was (I think I upset a few people with that comment) and I think that's pretty much true right now.
 
I take that as a direct offense towards the French and the Welsh (specially as I see the Welsh as favorites over the Irish)
Well, the reason I never put the French in my comment was because, we just proved you can't demolish us so there is no reason to state the French again. And my reasoning for not picking the Welsh was because I thought they were coming up against England in the quarters, As much as I'd love for them to beat England in the quarters, my head says otherwise.

I agree totally, and my eyes popped out when I read JUSTIN MARSHALL this morning, listen to this crock of crap...
--------------
"Several players, notably Jane, Dan Carter, Adam Thomson and Israel Dagg, all had huge games against the French.


Thomson is becoming the obvious answer to our depth problems at No 8. With a concerted coaching effort I think he could make the position his own. He's big enough. He is a great lineout jumper, is quick off the base of the scrum and is a physical presence at the breakdown.


I have always thought No 8 was his best position and, let's face it, we don't have any depth in that area."
-------------

The one thing from that game is that Neither Thomson or McCaw are the answer to #8 and it was a mistake playing Thomson over Vito, or Messam, or heck even Kaino for that matter.

As far as #8 goes I'd rate Thomson behind Read, Vito, Messam, Manu, Heck maybe even Bourke/Lee/Peter Saili


Thompson does a LOT of work on defense and has great speed around the field, there is no denying it. But his defense isn't powerful (he makes a lot of tackles but more often than many AB defenders he gives away the advantage line unless he rushes) neither is his ball carrying and the ratio of penalties he gives away in comparison to the number of turnovers he wins is bad. in my opinion if I could pick one player I thought was most likely to give away a silly penalty to cost the AB's a game it would be Thomson and we've already seen it this year when he gave away 4 penalties for 0 turnovers against the Springboks in the 2nd tri nations test. Better players have been cut from the AB's for less yet it was Messam who didn't make a single mistake and did some good work in that game who was dropped.

I see physicality is critical and IMO the major area Thomson lacks, people have been bagging Tony Woodcock but watch what happens when he tackles people around the rucks. They stop dead in their tracks then go backwards. he only made about three less tackles than Thomson against France but his overall effect was much greater because when he tackles someone his teammates don't have to retreat to be ready for the next wave and it creates more chances for turnovers. As supporting forwards only need to go forward and not back before going forward to drive over the ball.

I think Thomson is still riding the wave from the one test when the AB's thrashed Australia a few years ago when he was impressive (on a day pretty much every player wearing black had a fantastic game). That and his lineout ability is carrying him IMO.

/rant off

on the other hand Kaino is riding a awesome wave of form so far. I think I said about a year ago that Kaino could end up being a more important player for the AB's than Jerry Collins was (I think I upset a few people with that comment) and I think that's pretty much true right now.

Man I now official see why people are fed up with Marshall. I was one of the few who didn't say a word about him as a presenter/commentator but now, COME ON JUSTIN, get real, "QUICK OFF THE BACK"?!?!?!?!!? Thomson wasn't even on the back of the bloody scrum what are you smoking down there in Mataura....

I wouldn't say Kaino is better than Collins, but he is in the same league as that enforcer type and it's great because we need another Jerry.
 
Well, the reason I never put the French in my comment was because, we just proved you can't demolish us so there is no reason to state the French again. And my reasoning for not picking the Welsh was because I thought they were coming up against England in the quarters, As much as I'd love for them to beat England in the quarters, my head says otherwise.

France are meeting England in the QF's, as it stands now. Wales are meeting Ireland. You also played a second string French frontrow btw.
 
It wasn't Frances strongest front row, but they were unlikely to meet a stronger one if they were to meet in the final (bar Servat in at hooker, I think he'd be the only improvement?) due to the players out injured
 
It wasn't Frances strongest front row, but they were unlikely to meet a stronger one if they were to meet in the final (bar Servat in at hooker, I think he'd be the only improvement?) due to the players out injured

Barcella, and I didn't think Mas was a longterm injury?
 
Ah, I don't really know to be honest - Suppose we'll see in the final as France will inevitably smash everyone they meet by 300 points now, the jammy gits
 
Ah, I don't really know to be honest - Suppose we'll see in the final as France will inevitably smash everyone they meet by 300 points now, the jammy gits

Not a chance in hell we shall see them exit the RWC in a week or 2 in the QF! I might not be very confident at the moment, but the closer the game the more confident I shall get and the more dissapointed I shall be if we lose :p.
 
Wow, what the heck happened to this thread?!

Racism, Chris Ashton, the Saints??!

More in tune with the NZ - France game, I watched the replay of the game, and I did not like the Mermoz Rougerie partnership. I would prefer Marty there but I am not a huge fan of his. Return Parra at nine bring Trihn-Duc back at ten, get Heymans some game time at 15. Medard & Clerc 11 & 14. The front row needs some help but we r short healthy props. Thought the second row and back three were good, but like the whole team more focus on defense.

For New Zealand, injuries permiting & return of KR @ 8, dont change a thing!
 
Larksea I can almost guarantee if Messam had had the identical game that Thomson had, you would be saying he had a great game. He had a good game, gave away one penalty, made plenty of tackles. I can think of only one tackle he went backwards in (on Picamoles). He was busy as, and scored a try to boot showing good support play (even though you bagged him for being on Kahui's wing, how dare he).
 
France are meeting England in the QF's, as it stands now. Wales are meeting Ireland. You also played a second string French frontrow btw.

I would just like to point out that a couple of months ago it was being said that the front row game in France was of such a higher standard that seasoned All Blacks such as Neemia Tialata would get "Slaughtered" in the top 14. Surely the second string unit of such an advanced country should have made easy work of a mediocre scrummager like Franks regardless? Are you willing to admit you may have been wrong about Franks yet or nahh..

Also, sorry to bring the conversation back to the haka, but i would like to point out that when the 10m rule was thought up it had nothing to do with the All Blacks whatsoever.
As long as i can remember we have operated under the 10m rule in college and interschool rugby. Pretty much every college has a haka and everyone knows you aren't allowed to cross your own 10 metre line as things can get a tad aggressive from there (I have been involved in matches that have broken out into all in fights during the opening haka battles). The IRB must have seen that the haka was causing a bit of a headache so they looked at how NZ has kept things in order and put that in place. I really don't see a problem with that.
 
i'm still getting over the comment about the new haka was created for South Africa... that is just awesome :)
 
The Law uses the the word "tackle"which is an intentional action. There has to be an intent to tackle or its not a penalty. The referee will usually judge this by where he thinks the player is looking. Usually, if he's looking at the player then he's in trouble, if he's looking at the ball, he's not. Its a rule of thumb, but not hard and fast one.

In this case, both players are looking at the ball, and they collide in mid air. The fact that Jane then puts his hands on is irrelevant; more than likely a natural reaction to being up in the air and falling. But the important thing is that there is no attempt by Jane to bring the French player down.

agreed, that is not a penalty...

infact Traille landed on Jane's head!!! ouch :O that is where Jane got the alleged head knock.... but he did good to score the try just after that....

I liked the opening song just before the game.... BEP - i got a feeling.... that tonight's gonna be a good night :D

how good is Dagg??? for fck sakes!!! is the guy human???
 
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