RWC: All Blacks - France (24-09-2011, 15:30)

[Shaggy]

Wow, that seems like a massive over-reaction considering you seem to only disagree with one starting spot and a couple of bench spots! It's not as though Henry and co. have picked a completely random team: they have picked basically a full strength team (barring Read), while in contrast France have made a number of interesting selections.

I have no issues at all with Thomson at 8 - he has played very well for the AB's this year when McCaw has played alongside him (and he played pretty well against Japan too..). I don't rate him at all when he has the sole responsibility of an openside flanker, but alongside a genunine '7' like McCaw he can be very effective. McCaw has looked very comfortable off the back the scrum when he has played alongside Thomson. Personally I wouldn't have picked Thomson in the squad at the start of the year, but he has (mostly) impressed me for the AB's this year.

Like you I'm not at all convinced with SBW at 22 - personally I'd prefer Toeava, but I don't think it hurts to give SBW another chance against top class opposition.

I agree with your remarks about Thomson, he's not nearly as bad as some people make out, and his performances do seem alot better when Ritchie is playing ... his work at the breakdown seems better, and in some ways, he also takes pressure off Ritchie, as there's another quick player that can get turnover ball. He also tackles well (when both arms are working properly), and is a lineout option too.

... however, if the loose trio is McCaw, Kaino, and Thomson, I would prefer Thomson at 6, and Kaino at 8 ... I know that Kaino has had limited time in the no.8 position, having only moved there when Whitelock moves to blindside when the lock replacements come on, but he has the physicality needed to do the job.

But what good is drawing in defenders from the wing position? You don't need a distributer at wing! You want someone who can exploit space, not create it.

The way the wingers are being asked to look for work, and are turning up in the mid field, I would argue that they need to be able to do all of the above ... my concerns over SBW's possible inclusion on the wing, are more on the defensive skills, such as full back cover, kicking, speed turning and getting back, when the ball is kicked over him etc - not saying he doesn't have those skills, just that they haven't been tested yet.

The 22 jersey is for utility players. SBW is not a utility player. You need to be able to cover wing/fullback/centre which Mils and especially Toeava can do so to a very high level. SBW has not proven he can.

Well, you need to be able to cover a few positions, yes ... he probably doesn't need to be able to cover full back, because slade is on the bench, and Cory Jane can also drop back there if needed

... He is obviously being asked to cover the centres and wing positions - i'm confident ha can cover 12 and 13, but not convinced about 11 and 14 against teams like France ... I guess there's only one way to find out if hes up to it or not

 

[Kiwiwomble]

... however, if the loose trio is McCaw, Kaino, and Thomson, I would prefer Thomson at 6, and Kaino at 8 ... I know that Kaino has had limited time in the no.8 position, having only moved there when Whitelock moves to blindside when the lock replacements come on, but he has the physicality needed to do the job.

generally i would agree but from what they have said they want thompson and mccaw to work together and Kaino to shut the blindside down

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I think Vito has had a very good WC so far, and I think that selecting Thomson ahead of him means GH wants more breakdown work and someone that can finish the breakaways more effectively. Vito is a much better defender and has better offloading than Thomson, but apparently GH thinks that France will not have many linebreaks and that the French defensive cover will not be very effective, so a fast N8 is more effective than very skillful one (in the sense that he can find gaps and offload). That's my reading at least.

The same goes with the outside backs. Having a finisher in Jane, a linebreaker in Dagg and a mixed kind in Kaui, perhaps Henry wants an "offloader" on the bench in case it's needed... I don't know if I'm making much sense, but anyway, I think GH is confident enough on the win to make experiments with SBW.

Disclaimer: many of the statements on the above post are based on exaggerations on the playing style of the players. Of course I know they are all very skillful in all phacets of play, I'm just schematizing. Also, for some players the judgements are based on just a few games that I've seen them play, so they could be plain wrong.

 

[Darwin]

I think Vito has had a very good WC so far, and I think that selecting Thomson ahead of him means GH wants more breakdown work and someone that can finish the breakaways more effectively. Vito is a much better defender and has better offloading than Thomson, but apparently GH thinks that France will not have many linebreaks and that the French defensive cover will not be very effective, so a fast N8 is more effective than very skillful one (in the sense that he can find gaps and offload). That's my reading at least.

The same goes with the outside backs. Having a finisher in Jane, a linebreaker in Dagg and a mixed kind in Kaui, perhaps Henry wants an "offloader" on the bench in case it's needed... I don't know if I'm making much sense, but anyway, I think GH is confident enough on the win to make experiments with SBW.

Disclaimer: many of the statements on the above post are based on exaggerations on the playing style of the players. Of course I know they are all very skillful in all phacets of play, I'm just schematizing. Also, for some players the judgements are based on just a few games that I've seen them play, so they could be plain wrong.

I don't think Vito has been that impressive so far; he's been ok, but I don't think his form has been that compelling. I don't think Thomson's form was any better, but it is clear that the AB's selectors (rightly or wrongly) rate Thomson higher than Vito, so Vito needed to have a couple of huge games to take the starting spot off Thomson. I agree with nearly everything you have written there, apart from your assertion that Vito is a much better defender than Thomson. I'd actually suggest Thomson is a slightly better defender - he makes more tackles than Vito, at a similar (or even slightly better) percentage. His line speed on defense for the AB's this year has been particularly impressive. He missed a couple of tackles versus Australia when his arm was busted (one on Samo that was particularly costly), but this is far from typical for him, and he certainly wasn't the only player to miss tackles on Samo that day (Richie McCaw missed a simple tackle on Samo earlier).

 

[Dizzy]

But what good is drawing in defenders from the wing position? You don't need a distributer at wing! You want someone who can exploit space, not create it.



The 22 jersey is for utility players. SBW is not a utility player. You need to be able to cover wing/fullback/centre which Mils and especially Toeava can do so to a very high level. SBW has not proven he can.

Well you have certainly convinced me there. Well just maybe this is his last chance to prove that he can

 

[Dizzy]

I don't think Vito has been that impressive so far; he's been ok, but I don't think his form has been that compelling. I don't think Thomson's form was any better, but it is clear that the AB's selectors (rightly or wrongly) rate Thomson higher than Vito, so Vito needed to have a couple of huge games to take the starting spot off Thomson. I agree with nearly everything you have written there, apart from your assertion that Vito is a much better defender than Thomson. I'd actually suggest Thomson is a slightly better defender - he makes more tackles than Vito, at a similar (or even slightly better) percentage. His line speed on defense for the AB's this year has been particularly impressive. He missed a couple of tackles versus Australia when his arm was busted (one on Samo that was particularly costly), but this is far from typical for him, and he certainly wasn't the only player to miss tackles on Samo that day (Richie McCaw missed a simple tackle on Samo earlier).

To be blunt, I believe if Vito was there instead of Thomson, He wouldn't have copped a huge "dont argue" fend from Radike. Thomson infringes too many thoughtless penalties, ones which Vito has not. If there is one thing I like about Vito, it is his sound mind, he's young but very mature and when he plays, he does almost NOTHING wrong. Thomson on the other hand has been guilty of giving away numerous kicking penalties, missing tackles and not stepping up to the plate when it comes to making yards.

Vito doesn't give away stupid penalties, very very rarely misses a tackle and makes about three or four great metre gaining runs a game.

 

[Darwin]

To be blunt, I believe if Vito was there instead of Thomson, He wouldn't have copped a huge "dont argue" fend from Radike. Thomson infringes too many thoughtless penalties, ones which Vito has not. If there is one thing I like about Vito, it is his sound mind, he's young but very mature and when he plays, he does almost NOTHING wrong. Thomson on the other hand has been guilty of giving away numerous kicking penalties, missing tackles and not stepping up to the plate when it comes to making yards.

Vito doesn't give away stupid penalties, very very rarely misses a tackle and makes about three or four great metre gaining runs a game.

Probably because Vito didn't have a busted up arm at the time Throughout the entire season Thomson has made more tackles per game than Vito (at an identical percentage) - as I've said many times, just because Thomson missed one tackle on Samo with a busted arm it doesn't make him a poor defender! Thomson does give away more penalties at the breakdown than Vito, though that is because he does more work at the breakdown than Vito (though some of the penalties he does conceded are unnecessary). Importantly when Thomson plays alongside a genuine openside (like McCaw) he doesn't actually give away many silly penalties at all. During the Tri-nations and RWC Thomson has conceded 4 breakdown penalties, all which were against South Africa when he was playing as an openside flanker. I agree he can struggle to make yards with the ball in hand, but he can be effective running wide with a bit of space (as the AB's selectors seem to be using him). I'm certainly not Thomson's biggest fan (I wouldn't have even selected him in my Tri-nations squad if I was a selector!), but he is far from a poor defender as some are suggesting.

Vito had a great 50-odd mins against Australia (after a number of early handling errors), but was completely anonymous against Tonga, and pretty quiet against Japan. I'm not necessarily saying that I would pick Thomson at 8, but Vito's form has hardly been screaming 'pick me', so I understand why Thomson has been given the nod.

 

[nickdnz]

I hate Thomsons's: John Cena "You Can't See Me" he does when scoring a try. Not that it is relivent, I just think he's a total dork.

 

[Icemn]

I hate Thomsons's: John Cena "You Can't See Me" he does when scoring a try. Not that it is relivent, I just think he's a total dork.

doesn't Read come back next week???

don't worry my friend Thomson is temporary

Regarding SBW and the 22 jersey... i agree that SBW is not a utility player... but to label the 22 jersey with only "utility" players i cant understand :? what does it matter which num ber is on your back anyways (referring to the bench)... you pick you bench and starting line as per your opponent... i think against France Henry might feel he can use SBW better from the bench as a Toeava ect... because he might GH might have identified a weakness in France on a certain position and might use SBW to exploit that come second half....

so what i'm saying that the bench and starting lineup might vary according to your opponent...

 

[M Two One]

You can bet that Yachvili will be kicking at every opportunity.

 

[Aout]

H-10.5

 

[i tickle ur tum]

the more i look at the lineups the better im feelin..there are some serious matchups...i cant f***** wait!!

 

[Darwin]

Starting to get a bit excited about this match. As mentioned above there are some really good match-ups all round.

The scrum battle will be interesting - everytime the AB's play France we get told of the 'dominant French scrum' yet I've yet to see it! I understand the French front-row is not at full strength, but I'm sure it will be a huge battle up front. I expect the AB's will hold there own (or even have the slight edge) as long as Owen Franks and Brad Thorn are on the field. If Brad Thorn goes off and is replaced by Williams the AB's scrum will struggle - hopefully if he does go off he will be replaced by Boric who is a strong scrummager (not as good as Thorn, but much better than Williams and Whitelock). I'm actually hoping Boric gets 30-odd mins alongside Thorn, as I still believe that is potentially out best locking combination. I expect lineouts to be pretty even; the AB's have had issues with lineouts in the past, but in recent years seemed to be far more consistent.

The loose-forward battle will probably be the highlight for me. I quite like the look of France's loose-forward trio: Dusautoir is world-class, and I've always been impressed by Picamoles. I expect the AB's may have a slight edge here, though much will depend on how McCaw plays. McCaw's work-rate has been as good as ever, but he just hasn't been as effective at the breakdown as he has been in the past. Kaino has been in phenomenal form over the last few weeks, and Thomson will want a huge game to secure his spot on the bench when Read returns. In Thomson's only test start at 8 (against South Africa this year) he had a huge game, so hopefully he can replicate that form again.

It will be very interesting to see how the French 9 and 10 combinations works - I expect they will switch round a bit depending on the situation. Weepu needs to have a big game, as there isn't really much between New Zealand's halfbacks at the moment. He really needs to get to the breakdown quickly, and his speed of delivery at the base needs to improve too - far too often he waits there with the ball at his feet for a long time allowing the opposition backline get organised. When he is playing instinctively, rather than in a slow controlled manner, I think he plays his best rugby.

I expect the AB's may have the edge in the midfield too. The AB's combo (Nonu in particular) has been in great form - I'm sure Nonu will relish running straight at Parra! I'm not sure how strong Parra's defense is, but Nonu has been causing everyone a lot of trouble with his running recently, and based on Parras size (or lack thereof) I think he will struggle to contain him. I expect Dusautoir and Bonnaire are going to be doing a lot of defensive work in the 9/10 channel, which may leave some gaps in closer to the ruck/scrum, which Weepu may look to exploit.

It is a huge test for Israel Dagg, and though I'm not his biggest fan (I still think he's a bit error prone) I can't help but get excited everytime he touches the ball. If he has a big game here he should secure his spot at 15 for the rest of the RWC. I get the feeling that Cory Jane is under a bit of pressure too: he had a poor Super Rugby season, and got in to the AB's RWC on the back of one exceptional game versus the Boks. At his best I still think Jane is the best wing in the world, and he will need to show that sort of form if he wants to hold off the challenge of Toeava. I rate both Clerc and Medard, but have never been that impressed by Traille at fullback. However if I remember correctly he was at fullback the last time France played the AB's at the RWC, and if I remember that game correctly (which I'd rather not) France were rather successful

I'm picking the AB's by 15-20 points, but it would be silly to completely write off the French - it would surprise me if it was closer than that, or France got the win.

 

[shtove]

I guessed this right 4 years ago, and I'm going for France again.

This match is crucial to the final outcome. The ABs need SBW in the centre to win the RWC, but Henry has left him on the bench. Without SBW France will defend the midfield no problem.

The lighweight Parra at 10 is the same problem Ireland has with ROG ie. not a problem!

It will come down to the last quarter, when SBW and Harinord come on to the pitch. That's the difference, and I think Henry has got it back to front.

So I say France.

 

[Darwin]

I guessed this right 4 years ago, and I'm going for France again.

This match is crucial to the final outcome. The ABs need SBW in the centre to win the RWC, but Henry has left him on the bench. Without SBW France will defend the midfield no problem.

The lighweight Parra at 10 is the same problem Ireland has with ROG ie. not a problem!

It will come down to the last quarter, when SBW and Harinord come on to the pitch. That's the difference, and I think Henry has got it back to front.

So I say France.

Based on what exactly? Nonu has been in phenomenal form in the last few months - he is a far bigger threat with ball in hand than SBW. I would be very surprised if France defend the midfield 'no problem'. If they can do that with Nonu on the field, they are going to have even less trouble if SBW comes onto the field in the centres!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

While Parra is obviously smaller than most international 10s he's not a poor tackler - he copes well enough defending at scrumhalf where he'll often have backrowers up in his face at scrum and ruck time trying to shut him down - he'll be used to physicality

 

[Darwin]

While Parra is obviously smaller than most international 10s he's not a poor tackler - he copes well enough defending at scrumhalf where he'll often have backrowers up in his face at scrum and ruck time trying to shut him down - he'll be used to physicality

My suggestion that Parra may struggle to contain Nonu has more to do with Nonu's form than Parra's tackling ability. I just think Nonu would cause them trouble in the defense no matter who they play at 10, and the fact that they now have a very small player - playing in an unfamiliar position - certainly won't help them!

 

[shtove]

Based on what exactly? Nonu has been in phenomenal form in the last few months - he is a far bigger threat with ball in hand than SBW. I would be very surprised if France defend the midfield 'no problem'. If they can do that with Nonu on the field, they are going to have even less trouble if SBW comes onto the field in the centres!

Nonu is a crash player, no offloads. France may have a problem with him, but I doubt it. Ireland certainly won't.

 

[Darwin]

Nonu is a crash player, no offloads. France may have a problem with him, but I doubt it. Ireland certainly won't.

I take it you haven't seen Nonu play in a few years? Nonu is a very different player than he was a few years ago. He is still very good at crashing the ball up, but one of the strengths of his game now is his distribution. He frequently puts players into gaps with his passing, and makes plenty of offloads. He may not make as many offloads as SBW (but no-one does), however unlike SBW he actually takes the ball to the advantage line before offloading, which makes him far more dangerous.

 

[Surefire]

While Parra is obviously smaller than most international 10s he's not a poor tackler - he copes well enough defending at scrumhalf where he'll often have backrowers up in his face at scrum and ruck time trying to shut him down - he'll be used to physicality

Olyy, I hope you r right, but I tend to agree with some of the above posters that Nonu will be able to cause some major problems. In any case I am pumped up for this game. 5 hours to go, better slow down on the beers!