Rugby's greatest rivals

[lucky number 7]

With all due respect the Irish army would have been absolutely rodgered had they declared against Germany..had they sent soldiers into europe they would have left a nice little landing strip for the luftwaffe to run 24/7 raids into Britain...not good for anybody

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Think there's a little more than that to be honest.

 

[lucky number 7]

Think there's a little more than that to be honest.

Yep a fair bit more politically however if we are looking at this plainly Ireland entering the war would have done no good for the Allied cause

 

[Feicarsinn]

Tbh, if the French had any sense, they'd have settled behind a giant moat themselves and wouldn't have been in that mess. So its all their fault really, for not being as clever a us. Can't be helped.

Also, the Mongols were absolutely a more effective fighting force than the Germans. There's quite a few others with fairly equal claims.

The French did exactly that, the ditch being the Maginot line. Those crafty Germans went through the forest though and with blitzkreig, once your first line of defence is broken, you're pretty screwed. Russia held out due to just being bloody massive.

I thought you might bring the Mongols up. I often wonder how effective they really were. Certainly they were very impressive in China, but their western conquests are less impressive than they would seem at first. They fought a Persia in serious decline, a completely divided Russia and couldn't get over the first western powers they came into contact with. Good, but I say the Germans, with their limited resources compared to the forces they were up against, were that bit better.

 

[lucky number 7]

The French did exactly that, the ditch being the Maginot line. Those crafty Germans went through the forest though and with blitzkreig, once your first line of defence is broken, you're pretty screwed. Russia held out due to just being bloody massive.

I thought you might bring the Mongols up. I often wonder how effective they really were. Certainly they were very impressive in China, but their western conquests are less impressive than they would seem at first. They fought a Persia in serious decline, a completely divided Russia and couldn't get over the first western powers they came into contact with. Good, but I say the Germans, with their limited resources compared to the forces they were up against, were that bit better.

All that said the German Military could not hold a total war...fantastic soldiers but without the manpower and industry required to equip and fuel them they were bound to overreach themselves at some stage.

 

[Feicarsinn]

All that said the German Military could not hold a total war...fantastic soldiers but without the manpower and industry required to equip and fuel them they were bound to overreach themselves at some stage.

Well alot of that comes from Hitler's refusal to actually gear the German economy toward total war. He was big into these symbolic gestures, such as his refusal to send the armies on the eastern front winter gear in 42' as he wanted them to reach Moscow before the snow came.

If they'd managed to take the oil fields of the Caucuses as was the original goal of Operation Blue, the war could have gone on for ages, but again Hitler overrode his generals and went for the symbolic, if strategically less important, victory in Stalingrad. This of course lead to the encirclement of the 7th army and the end of any German advancement in the east. Silly boy that Adolf.

 

[lucky number 7]

Well alot of that comes from Hitler's refusal to actually gear the German economy toward total war. He was big into these symbolic gestures, such as his refusal to send the armies on the eastern front winter gear in 42' as he wanted them to reach Moscow before the snow came.

If they'd managed to take the oil fields of the Caucuses as was the original goal of Operation Blue, the war could have gone on for ages, but again Hitler overrode his generals and went for the symbolic, if strategically less important, victory in Stalingrad. This of course lead to the encirclement of the 7th army and the end of any German advancement in the east. Silly boy that Adolf.

Made one heck of a Napoleon didn't he. Not an outstanding strategist but his speaking and ability to whip the nation into a frenzy was phenomenal. even if they had reached the oilfields I doubt it would have made a huge difference ultimately with what the Yanks were capable of churning out.

I reckon Hitler should have quit while he was ahead .Munich treaty gave him what he initially set out for. went too far in trying to use Poland as a buffer zone if you ask me

 

[dumpTackle]

having studied in wales as an englishman i know first hand the rivalry that is tied up in the rivalry between these two great rugby nations. And they are great. After my 3 years of study, i left wales twice the patriot i was previously and led to an ingrained dislike of the welsh rugby side - it is amazing to see what a little bit of friendly banter spread out over 3 years can do!!

I'm not saying that this is the MOST intense international rivalry but the atmosphere in the Millenium Stadium for the 6Nations opener would beg to differ - that was an intensely fierce environment! Again not saying it is the most intense, but it definitely should have made the short list!!

Over and out.

 

[LittleGuy]

English? I was under the illusion that it was very much a British thing and yes, even Irish soliders under the british flag were there too, although Dunkirk was overshadowed by the fact that Britain stood alone against the Axis for nigh on a year, including repelling a pre-invasion assault on this island and bankrupting the empire fighting to the end. Where as France..*COUGH* vichy *COUGH*

Standing alone? Don't forget your other allies, with two Canadian divisions actually assigned to defend the shores of England should a German attack come, an RAF loaded with colonial, commonwealth and "free" pilots from occupied territories. ANZAC and Indian divisions doing the bulk of the fighting in North Africa. Ships of all nationalities forming convoys to keep Britain supplied, defended in many cases by the Royal Canadian Navy and ships from countries such as Norway that managed to escaped the German occupation. Borderline American involvement under lend lease, partisan bands and saboteurs in occupied territories.

Anyways onto rugby rivalries a very subjective topic, I will only comment on my own countries which is of course the U.S.A. Eagles, I certainly wouldn't say it's the "greatest" in the world due to the strength of both teams, but the games are always intense, and their is a rich history of some 45 tests between us. I'm expecting the home and away series between the two in early August to be exciting. Its the same for Canada in most sports especially Baseball and Association football, although in Ice Hockey the Soviet Union was a massive rival and to a lesser degree Russia of today could be close to the U.S.A. as greatest Ice Hockey rival.

 

[Peat]

Its hardly a moat if you can drive land armies over it, is it now?

If we're going to talk about the bobbinness of the enemies, the French of 1940 had the morale and elan of a cowpat, the British weren't able to commit in sufficient force anywhere to really make a difference (and weren't very good) and good old Uncle Joe Stalin had just killed most of his generals. All useful things for making an enemy look good. A certain amount of ineptitude and mediocrity is just the going rate for most militaries really. The Mongols undertook campaigns that are staggering in terms of their timing, their ability to communicate and the logistics needed. In terms of making the most of what they were given, undoubtedly more efficient for my money. And their failure to overcome the western powers has more to do with political instability in the Mongol Khanate and deaths of important figures than any military superiority. An apt comparision would be Frederick the Great's survival through the death of the Russian Czar.

And while the contributions made by various other countries, particularly those of the Commonwealth like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, should never be forgotten, broadly speaking Britain was alone as the sole power in close proximity to Germany giving it the big one for a year, at a ruinous cost in terms of blood and gold. We're grateful (or fcuking well should be), but we were the ones with the bloody noses afterwards... well, apart from mainland Europe and Russia.

 

[FlukeArtist]

When did this become about WW2???

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Round posts #65 - #66 to be precise.

 

[Aout]

Britain held due to geography. Had the channel not been there London would have been taken just as quickly. The German army in the second world war was the most effective fighting force since the Roman Legions.

You forgot Napoleon and Charlemagne.

There have been only 4 "nations" that took over Europe : Romans, Frenchs with Charlemagne, Frenchs with Napoleon, and eventually Germany.

It's communally admitted that the 4 greatest general of all time were Alexander the Great, Caesar, Napoleon and Rommel.

 

[Barbarian Horde]

Can't believe there weren't more votes for Australia-New Zealand...always a great atmosphere and almost always highly competitive. Taken in perspective(cultural, historical,etc), I don't see how any other rivalry (besides possibly England-France) comes close.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Can't believe there weren't more votes for Australia-New Zealand...always a great atmosphere and almost always highly competitive. Taken in perspective(cultural, historical,etc), I don't see how any other rivalry (besides possibly England-France) comes close.

Really ... really ... pah

 

[Feicarsinn]

You forgot Napoleon and Charlemagne.

There have been only 4 "nations" that took over Europe : Romans, Frenchs with Charlemagne, Frenchs with Napoleon, and eventually Germany.

It's communally admitted that the 4 greatest general of all time were Alexander the Great, Caesar, Napoleon and Rommel.

I'd throw field Marshall Zhuckov in with those boys. Fantastic tactician.

 

[The big Kangaroo]

Can't believe there weren't more votes for Australia-New Zealand...always a great atmosphere and almost always highly competitive. Taken in perspective(cultural, historical,etc), I don't see how any other rivalry (besides possibly England-France) comes close.

i agree with this guy. I dont know about new Zealand but here in OZ their are so Manny kiwi's and when the wallabies win ive allays got a mate to remind of it + going back to the ANZAC's; we have been rivals in a good way

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't see how any other rivalry (besides possibly England-France) comes close.

Ay?
England and France certainly have some history, but England vs Wales is the main rivalry,
I find it strange that people would think it wasn't

 

[Groundhog]

do you notice most of the sh people shut up once the subjest changed to ww2

 

[Nicolaas]

do you notice most of the sh people shut up once the subjest changed to ww2

yea cuz last time i checked this was a rugby forum? and if it werent for the americans (which we all hate) who arrived late then you would have typed that sentence in german.