Rugby Championship: New Zealand - Argentina (08/09/2012)

[welshglory]

Basically half the squad's first name is Juan. An honest mistake ^_^

 

[psychic duck]

Felipe Contepomi.

He would have solved their goal-kicking issues and impotent centre attack in one swoop. With him I'm certain they would have beat SA and run NZ even closer, a special player even now. Whilst I do not blame him at the end of his career it's a shame he chose the money.

1. Contepomi would not have solved Argentina's kicking problems, he got the goal kicking yips himself around 2010.
2. He didn't "choose the money", he just decided to move aside for younger players. (So did Roncero, but he decided to keep playing until the end of the tournament)

Huge fan of his, but he's 35. I don't believe he would have been THAT effective. 2-3 seasons ago maybe. Like you though I was disappointed he bowed out of test rugby before this championship. Totally understand the move though.

I agree here. I would have liked to see Contepomi playing and finishing with test rugby after the tournament, he would have deserved his place on form, but I don't think he would have made a dramatic difference.

Nah they've got enough playmakers/kickers as it is.

Not goal kickers.

They need a real running threat, someone who will suck in defenders.

Juan Imhoff ...

Just Phelan prefers to select a side full of Garryowen merchants to contain opposition, rather than select flair players.

Hence why Amorosino (who saved Phelan's job at the RWC) has been dropped to the bench behind a player who (when playing 15) just does up and unders.

 

[welshglory]

Juan Imhoff ...

Just Phelan prefers to select a side full of Garryowen merchants to contain opposition, rather than select flair players.

Hence why Amorosino (who saved Phelan's job at the RWC) has been dropped to the bench behind a player who (when playing 15) just does up and unders.

Hmmm i know that he's a really good runner but i was thinking more along the lines of a physical tackel breaking player.

You look at the other RC sides and the likes of Nonu/SBW, Gear/Savea, Ioane and Frans Steyn.

I think they need a player like that who will straighten the line and break tackles.

 

[james5000]

Would not be surprised tbh.

I think they will definitely beat AUS, and come close with the ABs.


I thought it was laughable that the Puma odds over the weekend was around $15. Just goes to show that the average AB fan/sports fan are clueless. Good to know that there's a a good community here on TRF.

**gets on TRF high horse**

There is definitely no guarantee that Argentina will beat Aussie anywhere, home or away. Aussie still go in as favourites they aint number two in the world for nothing.
The fan's don't make the odd's the bookies do, and i'd say those clueless fans would be happy with the result. I wonder if the people that thought 15 bucks on Argentina was a bargain are happy with it?

I'm glad Argentina are in the comp, but I'm not expecting miracles. It would be a miracle if they win both of those home games.
I reckon they would feel reasonably satisfied even if they lose their remaining 3 games, which in all likelihood they will.

Aussie still have a lot of experience and class the likes of Moore, Sharpe, Alexander, AAC, Ioane, Cooper, Beale etc, write them off at your peril

 

[james5000]

YEs, but $15 is a lot and compeltely undermines what the Argies are as a team. They look good and are only a backline player or two from really challenging.

The average bandwagoner/unknowledgaeble/blind fanboy fan is in for a shock.

forget that last post, your obviously a ****wit,

 

[nickdnz]

forget that last post, your obviously a ****wit,

Easy mate, a bit uncalled for don't you think? You don't have to agree with his post, but calling someone a ****wit is an offensive over reaction.

 

[admartian]

Basically half the squad's first name is Juan. An honest mistake ^_^

You mean like the Welsh and 'Jones'?

There is definitely no guarantee that Argentina will beat Aussie anywhere, home or away. Aussie still go in as favourites they aint number two in the world for nothing.
The fan's don't make the odd's the bookies do, and i'd say those clueless fans would be happy with the result. I wonder if the people that thought 15 bucks on Argentina was a bargain are happy with it?

I'm glad Argentina are in the comp, but I'm not expecting miracles. It would be a miracle if they win both of those home games.
I reckon they would feel reasonably satisfied even if they lose their remaining 3 games, which in all likelihood they will.

Aussie still have a lot of experience and class the likes of Moore, Sharpe, Alexander, AAC, Ioane, Cooper, Beale etc, write them off at your peril

Sure.

They're dangerous - I wasn't writing off the possibility of them winning. I was simply basing this off of their performances so far. As in, being lucky to beat a Bok side in th emiddle of rebuilding and finding their legs.

Fair enough - I'm not privy into the whole betting aspect - that was simply my perception of it.

forget that last post, your obviously a ****wit,

Umm where did this come from?

:lol:



(Psssst, guys, remember when I said I was proud of having smart, eloquent, logical, and rational rugby fans on TRF? I may need to make a few exceptions....)

 

[Colombia]

1. Contepomi would not have solved Argentina's kicking problems, he got the goal kicking yips himself around 2010.
2. He didn't "choose the money", he just decided to move aside for younger players. (So did Roncero, but he decided to keep playing until the end of the tournament)

1. yes he would, he has BMT and it's obviously 2012 not 2010. I recall him converting the kick that put Argentina into the RWC Qtrs, a kick the RC kickers possibly would have missed.
2. yes he did, despite the "official reason"

Huge fan of his, but he's 35. I don't believe he would have been THAT effective. 2-3 seasons ago maybe. Like you though I was disappointed he bowed out of test rugby before this championship. Totally understand the move though.

Roncero is 35 and was the best player on the pitch while was on. Contepomi isn't in his prime but he is such a step up on Fernandez in attack.

 

[Darwin]

1. yes he would, he has BMT and it's obviously 2012 not 2010. I recall him converting the kick that put Argentina into the RWC Qtrs, a kick the RC kickers possibly would have missed.
2. yes he did, despite the "official reason"



Roncero is 35 and was the best player on the pitch while was on. Contepomi isn't in his prime but he is such a step up on Fernandez in attack.

Yep, they possibly would have missed it. They possibly would have got it too. It wasn't really the hardest kick of all time - if I remember correctly it was 15m or so to the right of the posts, a kick I would expect most kickers to nail (though it would be more difficult considering the pressure involved). I also remember Contepomi having a rather forgettable Rugby World Cup with the boot - despite kicking the conversion in question he was only 3/6 for that game, and 8/15 (53%) overall (almost exactly the same as Rodriguez, who was 8/16 [50%]). I'm not able to comment on his kicking at club level, but I've never considered him a great goal-kicker whenever I've seen him at international level (he has always been pretty solid though).

The one big weakness I saw in Contepomi's game at the rugby world cup was his defense, as he seemed to miss quite a few tackles. The match against Scotland in particular stood out, where he missed almost as many tackles as he made. I'm sure his experience would be helpful for Argentina, but I wonder whether it would be worth sacrificing their solid defense for?

 

[Colombia]

Yep, they possibly would have missed it. They possibly would have got it too. It wasn't really the hardest kick of all time - if I remember correctly it was 15m or so to the right of the posts, a kick I would expect most kickers to nail (though it would be more difficult considering the pressure involved). I also remember Contepomi having a rather forgettable Rugby World Cup with the boot - despite kicking the conversion in question he was only 3/6 for that game, and 8/15 (53%) overall (almost exactly the same as Rodriguez, who was 8/16 [50%]). I'm not able to comment on his kicking at club level, but I've never considered him a great goal-kicker whenever I've seen him at international level (he has always been pretty solid though).

I wouldn't read too much into overall kicking stats at that World Cup. There were a lot of complaints about the ball and a lot of missed kicks from outstanding kickers across the board. Granted it was me who used an example from that competition to illustrate his BMT, but I have watched Contepomi kick for years in all competitions, while not a Morne Steyn or Jonny Wilkinson, he is pretty reliable - he has 628pts at test level.

The one big weakness I saw in Contepomi's game at the rugby world cup was his defense, as he seemed to miss quite a few tackles. The match against Scotland in particular stood out, where he missed almost as many tackles as he made. I'm sure his experience would be helpful for Argentina, but I wonder whether it would be worth sacrificing their solid defense for?

It's not something I have ever really noticed in his game before. Just to be clear, I don't think Argentina were going to beat NZ at the weekend with or without Contepomi, imo his presence could have brought them closer but not close enough for the win. I do think however they would already have a home win over the Springboks were he available. Fernandez is not in the same league as an attacker.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Contepomi hasn't been an accurate goalkicker for a while now. It was poor at the 2007 RWC already. He hasn't kicked for his club for a few seasons now either.

 

[Darwin]

Contepomi hasn't been an accurate goalkicker for a while now. It was poor at the 2007 RWC already. He hasn't kicked for his club for a few seasons now either.

Thanks ZeFrenchy. That was the impression I had, but I don't watch enough Northern Hemisphere club rugby to have any real knowledge on his goal-kicking ability barring the times I have seen him at international level, where he hasn't really impressed me. I don't think he would be worse than the current goal-kickers they have, but I wouldn't have thought he would be much better. I understand Martín Bustos Moyano is very good goal-kicker - do you see him featuring in the starting lineup any time in the near future?[h=3][/h]

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Thanks ZeFrenchy. That was the impression I had, but I don't watch enough Northern Hemisphere club rugby to have any real knowledge on his goal-kicking ability barring the times I have seen him at international level, where he hasn't really impressed me. I don't think he would be worse than the current goal-kickers they have, but I wouldn't have thought he would be much better. I understand Martín Bustos Moyano is very good goal-kicker - do you see him featuring in the starting lineup any time in the near future?

He's certainly their most accurate goalkicker, and is a decent enough winger. He gets a lot less involved than Imhoff, Agulla and Camacho though. I don't think he will start, as Argentina haven't put winning games as their priority (nonsense, I know). It's a tough call, really.

I think that Argentina's goalkicking problems come precisely from their football (association) background. Their goalkickers are talented, and they kick in a very natural and relaxed way, as if kicking a free kick in football. However, a rugby goalkicker is different: you need method and consistency, kick every time the same. I owuld classify Frans Steyn in the same category as above.
I remember having watched the Cardiff-Leicester penalty shootout in the 2009 Heineken Cup semis with Argentine commentary. Former Pumas winger Diego Albanese was in charge of the analysis. He said that since they're pretty young, Argentine players stay after practices to kick at goal, but without a coach and more in the "I bet you a beer" spirit. He said that basically any Pumas player could kick a goal from the 22m line in front of the posts more than half the times. I particularly recall him saying that Roncero would definitely ask to be one of the kickers. This is precisely the problem: they kick as if it were a game, they don't train an actual kicking routine. This was enough for some of them (Hugo Porta comes to mind, or Federico Todeschini), but most players need to work on their consistency.

 

[psychic duck]

He's certainly their most accurate goalkicker, and is a decent enough winger. He gets a lot less involved than Imhoff, Agulla and Camacho though. I don't think he will start, as Argentina haven't put winning games as their priority (nonsense, I know). It's a tough call, really.

I think that Argentina's goalkicking problems come precisely from their football (association) background. Their goalkickers are talented, and they kick in a very natural and relaxed way, as if kicking a free kick in football. However, a rugby goalkicker is different: you need method and consistency, kick every time the same. I owuld classify Frans Steyn in the same category as above.
I remember having watched the Cardiff-Leicester penalty shootout in the 2009 Heineken Cup semis with Argentine commentary. Former Pumas winger Diego Albanese was in charge of the analysis. He said that since they're pretty young, Argentine players stay after practices to kick at goal, but without a coach and more in the "I bet you a beer" spirit. He said that basically any Pumas player could kick a goal from the 22m line in front of the posts more than half the times. I particularly recall him saying that Roncero would definitely ask to be one of the kickers. This is precisely the problem: they kick as if it were a game, they don't train an actual kicking routine. This was enough for some of them (Hugo Porta comes to mind, or Federico Todeschini), but most players need to work on their consistency.

Bustos Moyano would have more chance getting into the side as a full back in my opinion, he would kind of be like a Chris Paterson.

The only Argentines who are first choice kickers for their clubs are Bustos Moyano and Igancio Mieres. Players like Contepomi, Rodríguez (behind Dupuy), Hernández (behind Germain or Wisniewski), Bosch (behind Yachvili and Berquist) only kick when needed. Nicolas Sanchez can goal kick (again in a very relaxed style), but was injured all last season so hasn't done it regularly for Bordeaux.

I think a better goal kicker must be fitted in the side somewhere, as a side like Argentina would need every point against the Aus, NZ and SA. They aren't going to be beating them if points are wasted on missed kicks.

In regards to Contepomi, both Darwin and ZeFrenchy are spot on. He is not much if any improvement on the current goal kickers, he was only ever an okay goal kicker in the first place, but his goal kicking has got worse in recent years, and hasn't kicked as first choice kicker for his club since he left Leinster in 2009.

Argentina have had good kickers in the past though, Federico Todeschini in the mid 2000's was very good, and also Gonzalo Quesada and Diego Dominguez (who was an Argentine) in the period before that.

To prove Ze Frenchy's point about consistency of goal kicking. Look how Marcelo Bosch (who's far too inconsistent and unreliable to be a first choice goal kicker) strikes these kicks so well and then so badly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZasuMbmuwwM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSnlO-uJzRw

 

[Superalexmarket]

We need urgently someone like Gonzalo Quesada working with the Argentine team, to teach a good kicking technique to us awfuls kickers. He was the last decent kicker in the Pumas, and we need him back!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

isn't it "funny" that Latin nations seem to have a problem with their goal kicking ?! (since they're so good at FOOTBALL itself !)
Italy has lost close games at the very, very last moment in the 6N at least 2 or 3 times; they'd have beaten Ireland by now for e.g.

 

[Colombia]

Contepomi hasn't been an accurate goalkicker for a while now. It was poor at the 2007 RWC already. He hasn't kicked for his club for a few seasons now either.

He kicked for Toulon when he played there and Wilkinson wasn't in the team. You might recall him kicking them to a 3-6 win at Toulouse.

As for RWC 2007, he hit 3 from 4 to put Argentina into the semi-final and 4 from 6 to help beat France in the 3rd/4th place play-offs. If you're looking for a more recent example, he hit 5 from 7 in June 2012 to beat France in Buenos Aires 23-20. As I said, he is not Morne Steyn or Jonny Wilkinson but the guy has BMT and nerve when the occasion requires.

That is goal-kicking however, my main argument for his inclusion was based on his attack, an area where Fernandez and Bosch look completely bereft.