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Rugby Championship: Australia - South Africa (08/09/2012)

Is it just me or is this the tactic that heyneke uses? proving that he doen't have game plan and that his plan is to spoil the other teams tactics... he doesn't announce his team, he 1st waits to see who starts and who is on the bench, then guess the other teams game plan based on the players and combinations etc. Then picks his team and players to out muscle the opposition :? i could be wrong, as always :)

You are wrong as always!

Everyone knows that Heyneke names his team every Wednesday at 12:00. How can it then be a tactic?? if the Aussies are so stupid to name their team before hand, then so be it. If that has an influence on HM's decision on who to pick or not, then again, not HM's fault. Nothing stops the Aussies from naming their team the exact same time as the boks, or an hour after or even on Thursday.

So yes, like always, YOU ARE WRONG!
 
You are wrong as always!

Everyone knows that Heyneke names his team every Wednesday at 12:00. How can it then be a tactic?? if the Aussies are so stupid to name their team before hand, then so be it. If that has an influence on HM's decision on who to pick or not, then again, not HM's fault. Nothing stops the Aussies from naming their team the exact same time as the boks, or an hour after or even on Thursday.

So yes, like always, YOU ARE WRONG!

No, Meyer announces his team at the start of the season...
 
Just gonna go ahead and say it, but I think Duane Vermualen is way overrated and I've seen it a long time even during Peter De Villiers tenure...he is not as good as Willem Alberts for one and yeah he is physical but it ends there, doesn't do anything wow or burst through the Advantage line everytime, I think Jean Deysel does an even better job at that than him. And No I'm not just bad mouthing cause I hate the guy and am a Sharks supporter but cause every one is looking at him and Goosen to be the "Saving grace of the Springboks"

First of all these guys have hardly had any game time since their injuries and they being way too rushed back into rugby and its Test Rugby might I add! Goosen for one, has only had one good season of Super Rugby and its too quick to judge him as like the next Dan Carter now or something! He hasn't been exposed fully yet and I know that day will come and rather it didn't come while he is playin for the Boks. Lambie on the other hand I think could become the next Dan Carter cos he has got it all and I think they should not move him around but rather keep him as a flyhalf!

Anyway that's my 2cents worth of comment, and I'm only posting this cos I know that atleast one of them(Duane and Goosen) will earn their 1st cap this Saturday!
 
Just gonna go ahead and say it, but I think Duane Vermualen is way overrated and I've seen it a long time even during Peter De Villiers tenure...he is not as good as Willem Alberts for one and yeah he is physical but it ends there, doesn't do anything wow or burst through the Advantage line everytime, I think Jean Deysel does an even better job at that than him. And No I'm not just bad mouthing cause I hate the guy and am a Sharks supporter but cause every one is looking at him and Goosen to be the "Saving grace of the Springboks"

First of all these guys have hardly had any game time since their injuries and they being way too rushed back into rugby and its Test Rugby might I add! Goosen for one, has only had one good season of Super Rugby and its too quick to judge him as like the next Dan Carter now or something! He hasn't been exposed fully yet and I know that day will come and rather it didn't come while he is playin for the Boks. Lambie on the other hand I think could become the next Dan Carter cos he has got it all and I think they should not move him around but rather keep him as a flyhalf!

Anyway that's my 2cents worth of comment, and I'm only posting this cos I know that atleast one of them(Duane and Goosen) will earn their 1st cap this Saturday!

I'm far from an expert on South African rugby, but I've always been a big fan of Vermeulen. Based on Super Rugby performances have thought he has been the best number 8 in South Africa for the last 2-3 years. What impresses me about him is not necessarily his ball running (which, while good, is probably not at the same level as the likes of Alberts or Deysel), but rather his overall game. He has a big work-rate and a low error rate, and because of this he seems to be effective regardless of whether the game is an open expansive match, or a tight forward-oriented battle (unlike another South African number 8 I know!). Whether he will be effective at test level is another question altogether - I tend to think his style of Number 8 play is ideally suited for test rugby, but I suppose time will tell....
 
Just gonna go ahead and say it, but I think Duane Vermualen is way overrated and I've seen it a long time even during Peter De Villiers tenure...he is not as good as Willem Alberts for one and yeah he is physical but it ends there, doesn't do anything wow or burst through the Advantage line everytime, I think Jean Deysel does an even better job at that than him. And No I'm not just bad mouthing cause I hate the guy and am a Sharks supporter but cause every one is looking at him and Goosen to be the "Saving grace of the Springboks"

First of all these guys have hardly had any game time since their injuries and they being way too rushed back into rugby and its Test Rugby might I add! Goosen for one, has only had one good season of Super Rugby and its too quick to judge him as like the next Dan Carter now or something! He hasn't been exposed fully yet and I know that day will come and rather it didn't come while he is playin for the Boks. Lambie on the other hand I think could become the next Dan Carter cos he has got it all and I think they should not move him around but rather keep him as a flyhalf!

Anyway that's my 2cents worth of comment, and I'm only posting this cos I know that atleast one of them(Duane and Goosen) will earn their 1st cap this Saturday!
Biased much! Willem is great, but he's yet to deliver at 8 in a single game I'm watched. He also has very poor basic handling skills.


Anyway starting line-up announced.
South Africa: 15. Zane Kirchner, 14 Bryan Habana, 13 Jean de Villiers (captain), 12 Frans Steyn, 11 Francois Hougaard, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Marcell Coetzee, 5 Juandré Kruger, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.
Replacements: 16 Tiaan Liebenberg, 17 Pat Cilliers, 18 Flip van der Merwe, 19 Francois Louw, 20 Johan Goosen, 21 Patrick Lambie, 22 Lwazi Mvovo.


Glad HM is starting Pienaar instead of Hougard at scum-half, glad Vermeulen is getting a run (certainly better than any other 8 at the moment) and glad that it appears Straus is fit.
I am a little irritated that Andries Bekker got dropped from the starting 22 after one game, and Morne has had 3/5 **** games and is yet to be dropped but all things considered I'm hopeful, it's actually the right call to drop Bekker, it just shows an inconsistency I don't like.

I just hope HM actually gives Goosen a run as opposed to only giving him a run if we are 25 points ahead.
 
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I'm very happy with the team. I watched the announcement and the entire interview this morning. Bekker wasn't just dropped because of his poor showing against Argentina, his back is still ****ling and HM doesn't want to aggrevate the injury further.

Pienaar at 9, Hougie at 11, Duane at 8... The only needed change is Morne. But with Goosen on the bench, along with Lambie, either one would most probably get a run. It just seems to me that HM sees Lambie as a back-up centre/full back. While I know this won't go down so good with Eze and Draggs, it is what we need on the bench, and Lambie's versatility is a great attribute.

@kusta, biaseness will only bring you so far. Willem Alberts has been much more influential for the boks at 7 than at 8. when he plays 8 for the boks, he disappears a bit. Duane deserves his spot. Nobody can disagree with that.

I'm looking much more forward to this match with this team than what I did last week with the unknowns... And HM's message is very clear, if you f*** up, you lose your place, so the guys know that no spot is secured anymore. In the interview one journalist asked if this was a rotation squad, and HM said no, he thought about it, but at test level, the best must play, and from now on, everyone will be under sever scutiny... yes, even Morne Steyn.
 
Good to see Hougaard on the wing, he's not a starting international scrum half.

Sharpey will show Kruger how it's done.
 
All Duane Vermulen does is give away penalties and start fights on the pitch, even Josh Strauss would be a better option at No.8...but let's wait and see and don't say I didn't tell you so when he flunks his performance on Saturday!
 
All Duane Vermulen does is give away penalties and start fights on the pitch, even Josh Strauss would be a better option at No.8...but let's wait and see and don't say I didn't tell you so when he flunks his performance on Saturday!
Actually you're right.

I'm so glad we come from a gentlemanly rugby culture where ill-disciplined "rough and tumble" players are out of favour
Players like Schalk and Bakkies who are always level headed and mild mannered are best.
 
Personally I think this looks like a much stronger South African side. Bekker had a shocking match versus Argentina, so Kruger deserves a chance to build on his solid debut in the England series. I think Vermeulen deserves a chance at 8, but I personally would have included Louw too. While it takes more than one player to neutralize a good pilfering 7 at the breakdown (like Hooper), I think having Louw in the side would have been a good move. He is more than happy to spend his time hitting the breakdown, whereas the likes of Alberts and Coetzee tend to spend more time waiting to make the next hit-up. The South African ball runners will have to be very careful not to be isolated, as Australia often have their openside standing a couple of metres directly behind the defensive line and ready to pilfer the ball the instant the first man makes the tackle (there will be even more of a threat when Gill comes on later in the game).

Good to see Pienaar get the start at 9 - I think his style of play if far more suited to the Boks gameplan than Hougaard (oops - I inadvertently wrote Bulls to start with, rather than Boks!). Likewise I think Hougaard has the potential to be a world class international wing. He is very dangerous with ball in hand (especially on the counter-attack), reliable in defense, and has a massive work-rate. He has more fredom when playing on the wing to 'pop up' in different areas, and could cause the Aussie some big problems!

I'm not convinced with picking both Goosen and Lambie on the bench, but it will be great to see Goosen if he gets a chance.
 
Man, what a waste of talent. Lambie on the bench again! I feel he will be the next Meyer Bosman. A fly-half being pushed out of position to accompany others. What's with Morne Steyn? How many matches does he have to **** up to be dropped? But no, when a non-Bulls player ****s up (i.e. Bekker) he is dropped immediately.
 
Looking forward to this game. Picking this one to be the game of the week.
 
It will be a very long but awesome rugby day...

09:30: All Blacks - Los Pumas
12:30: Wallabies - Springboks
15:00: Griquas - Natal Sharks
17:00: Blue Bulls - Golden Lions
19:00: FS Cheetahs - Western Province


Can a day get any better than this?!
 
Looking very much forward to this game.
All in all pretty happy about the additions, if I had my way I would put Louw in and Alberts on the bench as Alberts performs just much better in this way.
The peope that said Duanne should not play 8 and Hougaard not a winger should stick around; you will learn a lot from the other posters here, in my view you have a massive lack of insight with those statements.

HM said that Bekker is out due to his ankle injury, either way he needs to shape up or get dropped permanently, he is not a class international 5 at present.
He also said Steyn is still in due to his experience and Goosen is marked for the future, I can live with that now that Steyn will at least get proper ball from Ruan.

My only real gripe is the waste of Lammetjie (Lambie). If not even used of the bench, why bother?
He should be rotated with the stable but uninspiring Kirschner, he has a future at 15 and not 10 in SA rugby
 
It will be a very long but awesome rugby day...

09:30: All Blacks - Los Pumas
12:30: Wallabies - Springboks
15:00: Griquas - Natal Sharks
17:00: Blue Bulls - Golden Lions
19:00: FS Cheetahs - Western Province


Can a day get any better than this?!

Your poor couch. ;)

My take on the team:
Up front there are no suprises. With Steenkamp out of the country, Mtawarira is the best loosehead. Hooker as expected, with injuries and such. Jannie starting is a tough call. I like Jannie, and he has had a great year for us, but I am not sure how much longer he will be up for international rugby. I like Cilliers (Plumtree, are you reading this?) and would like to see him given a shot. I won't say "It's only Australia", but of all matches, this is one where you can make changes to your front row without undue stress.

Etzebeth is a good second row. Needs some time, but I see no reason to drop him, apart from being a Stormer :p Bekker has been out for far too long and last week showed it. I felt Kruger was unlucky to be dropped for the first two matches, so good to see him back. Flip van der Merwe... oh dear. Meyer talks about not wanting Brussow because of discipline but picks this lump. I'd rather see Bresler (No more mullet, what more must he do?!) or perhaps Elstadt.

Those who read my comments on the Sharks threads will know my stance on Willem Alberts (impact sub). Coetzee wasn't great last week, but he is a young player with plenty of promise, and I get the feeling he will want to make amends. Vermeulen is a tough call. I was one of many wanting to see him play this season, but considering his injury record and lack of gametime, putting him right into the starting lineup is a big ask. I haven't see much of Louw lately, but I am told he has been in good form so I look forward to seeing him play.

The backline is where we run into some trouble. Pienaar has been brought into the starting lineup to replace the Hougaard, who has failed to shine lately. I always felt that Hougaard wasn't really up to the job of an international scrumhalf, and we can clearly see he needs more time for the Bulls there. The inclusion of Morné Steyn is baffling and expected. His weaknesses have been as plain as day since 2009, but seemingly made up for it with his truly incredible boot. Now that his kicking form has left him, we all wonder what he is doing. I see backs with such promise that are being under utilised/ignored and it pains me.

Mvovo has been dropped for Hougaard, but has really done nothing wrong. Every slight break Habana makes causes his defenders do jump up and declare that he has returned to form. New Zealand were able to drop Rokocoko when his form dropped, but Habana is untoucable. Midfield is still shambles. Steyn is clearly not fit or playing the wrong type of game. He thinks he is an outside back and tries to beat his man, which has yet to work. The captain, de Villiers, has looked a shadow of his former self. I understand that he is out of position, but the mistake he is making are simply stupid. I look at the fullback, and shake my head. What more must be done?

Tough match to call. Theoretically, both sides will want to bounce back, but I see home advantage being enough for Australia. The Australian backline is much more secure (apart from Beale at fullback, but AAC to 13 is a move that had to be done) than last week. It was surprising to see Higginbotham dropped; It seems like only yesterday it was "Elsom out, Higgers in". Reminds me of that old Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch "Thatcher out".
 
Icemn dude,... you really have some outrageous opinions man!
 
Your poor couch. ;)

My take on the team:
Up front there are no suprises. With Steenkamp out of the country, Mtawarira is the best loosehead. Hooker as expected, with injuries and such. Jannie starting is a tough call. I like Jannie, and he has had a great year for us, but I am not sure how much longer he will be up for international rugby. I like Cilliers (Plumtree, are you reading this?) and would like to see him given a shot. I won't say "It's only Australia", but of all matches, this is one where you can make changes to your front row without undue stress.

Etzebeth is a good second row. Needs some time, but I see no reason to drop him, apart from being a Stormer :p Bekker has been out for far too long and last week showed it. I felt Kruger was unlucky to be dropped for the first two matches, so good to see him back. Flip van der Merwe... oh dear. Meyer talks about not wanting Brussow because of discipline but picks this lump. I'd rather see Bresler (No more mullet, what more must he do?!) or perhaps Elstadt.

Those who read my comments on the Sharks threads will know my stance on Willem Alberts (impact sub). Coetzee wasn't great last week, but he is a young player with plenty of promise, and I get the feeling he will want to make amends. Vermeulen is a tough call. I was one of many wanting to see him play this season, but considering his injury record and lack of gametime, putting him right into the starting lineup is a big ask. I haven't see much of Louw lately, but I am told he has been in good form so I look forward to seeing him play.

The backline is where we run into some trouble. Pienaar has been brought into the starting lineup to replace the Hougaard, who has failed to shine lately. I always felt that Hougaard wasn't really up to the job of an international scrumhalf, and we can clearly see he needs more time for the Bulls there. The inclusion of Morné Steyn is baffling and expected. His weaknesses have been as plain as day since 2009, but seemingly made up for it with his truly incredible boot. Now that his kicking form has left him, we all wonder what he is doing. I see backs with such promise that are being under utilised/ignored and it pains me.

Mvovo has been dropped for Hougaard, but has really done nothing wrong. Every slight break Habana makes causes his defenders do jump up and declare that he has returned to form. New Zealand were able to drop Rokocoko when his form dropped, but Habana is untoucable. Midfield is still shambles. Steyn is clearly not fit or playing the wrong type of game. He thinks he is an outside back and tries to beat his man, which has yet to work. The captain, de Villiers, has looked a shadow of his former self. I understand that he is out of position, but the mistake he is making are simply stupid. I look at the fullback, and shake my head. What more must be done?

Tough match to call. Theoretically, both sides will want to bounce back, but I see home advantage being enough for Australia. The Australian backline is much more secure (apart from Beale at fullback, but AAC to 13 is a move that had to be done) than last week. It was surprising to see Higginbotham dropped; It seems like only yesterday it was "Elsom out, Higgers in". Reminds me of that old Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch "Thatcher out".

I agree almost completely with that analysis Draggs - I'm starting to believe you and I are the same person ;)

The only thing I would say is that I don't know if Rokocoko is a good example to use in terms of dropping players when they fall out of form. While he was dropped eventually, many New Zealanders (apart from those named TRF_nickdnz) felt he should have been dropped a couple of seasons earlier than he was!
 
Yeah, it did take some time for Rokocoko to go, but it seemed that more were supporting him being dropped than Habana. Habana really hasn't been in exception form since 2007.
Rokocoko would have had his downturn around the same time. The difference is Rokocoko was dropped in November 2010, Habana is still starting.

How about South Africa go for tries once everybody is back?

Pienaar, Lambie, Pietersen, Steyn/?, Jordaan/de Jongh/Ebersohn, Hougaard/Basson/Aplon, le Roux/Ludik.
 
Yeah, it did take some time for Rokocoko to go, but it seemed that more were supporting him being dropped than Habana. Habana really hasn't been in exception form since 2007.
Rokocoko would have had his downturn around the same time. The difference is Rokocoko was dropped in November 2010, Habana is still starting.

How about South Africa go for tries once everybody is back?

Pienaar, Lambie, Pietersen, Steyn/?, Jordaan/de Jongh/Ebersohn, Hougaard/Basson/Aplon, le Roux/Ludik.

:lol: That is why I like you Draggs, always the comedian!

With regards to Habana, while I agree that Habana probably doesn't deserve to still be starting on the wing, I don't think it is a big issue for South Africa given their current game plan. Whoever plays on the wing isn't going to be getting that much ball in any case, so Habana's lack of attacking prowess isn't really an issue. His high work-rate, solid ability under the high ball, and solid defense (when he is not running out of the line looking for the intercept) suits the current Boks game plan, so I can see him starting on the wing for the foreseeable future. Personally though if everyone was fit (and they had an attacking 10) I would go with Hougaard and either Pieterson or Aplon on the wings (as you have in your lineup...).
 
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