Rugby Championship: Australia - New Zealand (18/08/2012)

[admartian]

I think Ellison would be a very safe bet at 13

I think ben smith would be good there too, heck he's got the skills to play anywhere 10-15 but he has not clocked up much game time in the midfield

I would hug ben smith given half the chance.

I'm interested on what people think on Thomson vs. Vito

I thought going into the Irish series Vito was ahead in the pecking order bit after that I think Thomson edges him now. Actually before the series I think the pecking order was Vito, Thomo, Liam but after the series the order was basically reversed. Though I don't think Messam will start this weekend because of his involvement in the super finals. Picking fresh players is going to be important going up against the Aussies who are basically all 100% rested after not being involved in the last two weeks of super rugby at all.

First of all, what - no 'No Homo' disclaimer?

Secondly, I would go Messam > vito >>>>>>>>Aaron Smith at blindside > Thomson. The dude has skills, but seems to make Lauaki-like errors at times.

 

[Draggs]

I think I'd hug Ben Smith too, for the record.
Did they have to call security to get you off of him, Darwin?

 

[Larksea]

I'm comfortable with myself and who I am to be able to hug another man, not like I said I would give him a reach around given half the chance!

I've gone on and on about how I rate Thomson, he has merits, some great strengths but do his strengths fit into what the team/position requires? I think it's OK for the highlanders forward pack to be shuffled around and run non-standard selections to accommodate Thomson but not the All Blacks.

But for Vito v. Thomson

If Vito does not start dominating oppositions physically then I'd rather have Thomson on the field he talked up the physical battle against the Irish then got smashed around by them in the first test. Vito needs a bit of mongrel in him, start throwing that size and strength of his around. Because in terms of stature he has an edge over the other two.

even though Thomson covers ground and tackles like a 7, jumps in a lineout like a lock and runs around the park on the wing (at times basically standing in front of the winger). The only two things he does like a 6 is pack down on that side of the scrum and wear the number 6 on his shirt.

Though I have seen stats that show that Thomson gives away twice as many penalties as messam or vito per playing time. He's also high up on giving away turnovers.

Though maybe I'm still ****** off about 2011 when Thomson gave away 4 penalties to the springboks in one game 3 were kicked for points (9 points) and the 4th killed one of the All Blacks best attacking positions in that game (unnecessary penalty given away on attack mid field about 15m from the springbok line). Then a couple of days later Liam Messam was dropped from the squad. The mind boggles....

Reality is there is very very little between the three, actually between the 4 if you include Kaino. It was just that Kaino's strengths fitted in best with what the All Blacks needed. Plus he prob was there first and took his chance best.

 

[Darwin]

I think I'd hug Ben Smith too, for the record.
Did they have to call security to get you off of him, Darwin?

This thread has turned very homoerotic. I'm surprised cyRil hasn't made an appearance yet.

There was no security required. After a few seconds a man hug always starts to be feel a bit weird... even if it with your hero

I'm comfortable with myself and who I am to be able to hug another man, not like I said I would give him a reach around given half the chance!

I've gone on and on about how I rate Thomson, he has merits, some great strengths but do his strengths fit into what the team/position requires? I think it's OK for the highlanders forward pack to be shuffled around and run non-standard selections to accommodate Thomson but not the All Blacks.

But for Vito v. Thomson

If Vito does not start dominating oppositions physically then I'd rather have Thomson on the field he talked up the physical battle against the Irish then got smashed around by them in the first test. Vito needs a bit of mongrel in him, start throwing that size and strength of his around. Because in terms of stature he has an edge over the other two.

even though Thomson covers ground and tackles like a 7, jumps in a lineout like a lock and runs around the park on the wing (at times basically standing in front of the winger). The only two things he does like a 6 is pack down on that side of the scrum and wear the number 6 on his shirt.

Though I have seen stats that show that Thomson gives away twice as many penalties as messam or vito per playing time. He's also high up on giving away turnovers.

Though maybe I'm still ****** off about 2011 when Thomson gave away 4 penalties to the springboks in one game 3 were kicked for points (9 points) and the 4th killed one of the All Blacks best attacking positions in that game (unnecessary penalty given away on attack mid field about 15m from the springbok line). Then a couple of days later Liam Messam was dropped from the squad. The mind boggles....

Reality is there is very very little between the three, actually between the 4 if you include Kaino. It was just that Kaino's strengths fitted in best with what the All Blacks needed. Plus he prob was there first and took his chance best.

Thomson certainly does give away a few more penalties than Messam/Vito, though a lot of that is because he does more work at the breakdown than either of them (slowing down opposition ball / forcing turnovers). He does give away a few too many silly penalties too though, which is very frustrating. I think Thomson's performance vs South Africa last season needs to be taken in context, as he was playing 7 in that match, and quite frankly he is hopeless at 7 (even for the Highlanders). He needs to be playing alongside a genuine 7, otherwise he is nowhere near as effective (and gets penalized far too often). It is also worth noting that one of the reasons that Thomson was penalized so often in that match was because he was often the 'lone ranger' at the breakdown up against 3-4 South African's - the likes of Afoa, Williams, and Messam were MIA for a lot of that match....

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Though I have seen stats that show that Thomson gives away twice as many penalties as messam or vito per playing time. He's also high up on giving away turnovers.

In all fairness to the bloke thats because he only gets to the breakdown about two seconds after Richie and only then because he is respectful enough to let the great man go first!

i dont think Thomo got enough credit for picking up his physical game recently, i dont know the stats but he seemed to be doing alot more of the tackling and less of the waiting forsomeone else to tackle so he could have a crack at the ball.


edit: sorry darwin, didn't mean to repeat your points re thomo and getting to the breakdown.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

This thread has turned very homoerotic. I'm surprised cyRil hasn't made an appearance yet.

There was no security required. After a few seconds a man hug always starts to be feel a bit weird... even if it with your hero

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wow 3 pages already and not a single comment on the Aussies! if there was a like button for this thread I'd click it!

 

[InsaneAsylum]

just for heineken:

hoping the wallabies can pull something out of the bag in sydney but then again as mentioned you don't really know what deans is up to. there aren't many obvious choices in the side but i'd like to see these guys make up the 15
1. robinson 2. moore (deans will pick TPN) 3. Kepu 4. houdini (simmons/timani) 5. sharpe 6. dennis 7. pocock 8. higginbotham 9. genia 10. cooper (deans will put barnes here) 11. ioane 12. barnes 13. ashley cooper (deans will pick horne or faingaa) 14. should be shipperley but deans will put AAC here 15. beale

hope to see gill picked on the bench with harris and we need a 4/3 split on the bench not a 5/2. bench should be TPN/Faingaa, slipper, gill, timani/douglas, phipps, harris, a.faingaa, although deans will probably pick samo as a backrower/winger

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Funnily enough with Dennis, Pocock and Higginbotham I think the Wallabies actually have the most balanced loose trio

Injuries to Read, Kaino, Burger, Brussow and Smith (and Vermeulen IMO even if he is uncapped) contribute but still. That said, McCaw has done well at 8 so far and Cane was class against a beaten Irish pack.. well it's going to be interesting this forwards battle.

 

[nickdnz]

Funnily enough with Dennis, Pocock and Higginbotham I think the Wallabies actually have the most balanced loose trio

Injuries to Read, Kaino, Burger, Brussow and Smith (and Vermeulen IMO even if he is uncapped) contribute but still. That said, McCaw has done well at 8 so far and Cane was class against a beaten Irish pack.. well it's going to be interesting this forwards battle.

As far as I know, Read should be alright for this match. Unless you've heard something to suggest otherwise?

 

[madflyhalf]

just for heineken:

hoping the wallabies can pull something out of the bag in sydney but then again as mentioned you don't really know what deans is up to. there aren't many obvious choices in the side but i'd like to see these guys make up the 15
1. robinson 2. moore (deans will pick TPN) 3. Kepu 4. houdini (simmons/timani) 5. sharpe 6. dennis 7. pocock 8. higginbotham 9. genia 10. cooper (deans will put barnes here) 11. ioane 12. barnes 13. ashley cooper (deans will pick horne or faingaa) 14. should be shipperley but deans will put AAC here 15. beale

hope to see gill picked on the bench with harris and we need a 4/3 split on the bench not a 5/2. bench should be TPN/Faingaa, slipper, gill, timani/douglas, phipps, harris, a.faingaa, although deans will probably pick samo as a backrower/winger

I agree almost in everything... also on Shipperley and AAC to fill JOC's place on the wing.
Wallabies are gonna missing JOC and Vickerman so much, and Pat McCabe too.

I'd go with Slipper - Moore - Kepu front row, with TPN/Saia and Alexander on the bench, if Robinson hasn't regained form

Simmons and Sharpe in the second row, with Samo or Douglas on the bench

Pretty difficult here, I think Dennis - Pocock and Higginbotham are the most balanced trio available (though not so expert), on the bench I'd take 2 backrower, Schatz and Hooper (I prefer Gill but not this time, IMO they're gonna need some sparkling in attack as Pocock and Dennis use to work well in defence, and the latter won't be subbed).

Concerns in the back line... really don't know because Cooper can be the X factor (and he was playing well, with a good learning curve and more focused in the last stages of SuperXV), but on the other hand has less gametime than Barnes who deserves his spot in the starting XV; i.e. the inclusion of one of these guys would mean the bench spot for the other one, but the absence of both O'Connor and McCabe enhance the complications.
Not only: with Drew Mitchell returning from injuries and the absence of a pure right winger (why?!?) is a big problem to solve in the outside backs.

If I had to choose: Cooper, Ioane, Barnes, AAC, Mitchell, Beale. This can open to the 5-2 split with Phipps (not to be White) and Fainga'a/Horne on the bench.
I have also an half idea about Hooper, could be blasphemy, but he has footwork like JOC and a good handling to play among the backs if necessary. Not this time

No one can predict what Dingo will du, it's impossible, paradoxically there are many chances in this squad, but only few for such a big test, he looked not keen to field both Barnes and Cooper in the starting XV, so:
Robinson - TPN - Kepu
Simmons - Sharpe
Dennis - Pocock (c) - Higginbotham
Genia
Barnes - Ant Fainga'a - Horne
Ioane - AAC - Beale

Moore, Alexander/Slipper, Samo, Schatz, Hooper, Phipps/White, Cooper


In the last few days Genia said Barnes should play 10.
So Cooper will play there.

 

[Larksea]

This thread has turned very homoerotic. I'm surprised cyRil hasn't made an appearance yet.

There was no security required. After a few seconds a man hug always starts to be feel a bit weird... even if it with your hero

Thomson certainly does give away a few more penalties than Messam/Vito, though a lot of that is because he does more work at the breakdown than either of them (slowing down opposition ball / forcing turnovers). He does give away a few too many silly penalties too though, which is very frustrating. I think Thomson's performance vs South Africa last season needs to be taken in context, as he was playing 7 in that match, and quite frankly he is hopeless at 7 (even for the Highlanders). He needs to be playing alongside a genuine 7, otherwise he is nowhere near as effective (and gets penalized far too often). It is also worth noting that one of the reasons that Thomson was penalized so often in that match was because he was often the 'lone ranger' at the breakdown up against 3-4 South African's - the likes of Afoa, Williams, and Messam were MIA for a lot of that match....

I agree Thomson is crap at 7 and has been even for the highlanders. But that just frustrates me even more when it comes to Messam being dropped. Because before the series begun I think Henry said that Thomson and Messam were going to cover 7. Thomson got his chance and blew it and Messam did not get a chance even though his best game of the year for the chiefs was the one game he played 7! Which was against the sharks!

I don't think it's right to blame Messam for Thomson's performance or the result. Sure he did not set the park alight but he didn't give away a penalty, or miss a tackle he was near the top of the tackle and Ruck arrival stats and did ok carrying the ball. Also quite clearly playing within himself somewhat and who can blame him? As I understand he was the only player in the All Black squad that played every minute of every regular season game in super rugby and clearly looked like he needed a bit of a break at the end of it. Like the whole All Black team he was only playing at 50-60% against fiji and maybe only 80% against South Africa.

Then what happened? Vito who was in blistering ITM cup form came into the squad, got some time on the park but really did not fire a shot, looked a shadow of the player that was rocking the house in ITM. Thomson played the next week and got injured and missed a tackle that allowed Australia to win the game and the Tri Nations... An example of where I think a solid mistake free performance like what Messam was producing could have been enough keep the result in NZ's favor. And it's also worth noting that Messam has missed like one game to injury in the last three years, and even that was minor and he could have played. He just never gets injured.

the most frustrating thing I find is that Messam was the best pick and go forward in the whole of super rugby, it was his trademark in 2011. Then for the Tri nations and early world cup games the All Blacks did not use pick and go at all - totally out of the game plan. But lo when the business end of the competition started - the games that actually mattered, the must win games... Pick and go became central to the All Blacks game plan, obviously a deliberate strategy! But where was New Zealand's best pick and go forward?

You would think to make a change like that and basically shatter a guys dream there would be good reason for it. But not only was there no really good reason for it, it turned out to be an unnecessary decision and actually a bad decision.

I'm sure people will nit pick over a few details of my argument but overall I'm sure people will see my point.

/rant over (for now)

Starting to really look forward to this weekend, even as a chiefs fan super rugby for me is mostly a competition between players for All Black selection! This is when the season really begins!

 

[admartian]

I'm comfortable with myself and who I am to be able to hug another man, not like I said I would give him a reach around given half the chance!

I've gone on and on about how I rate Thomson, he has merits, some great strengths but do his strengths fit into what the team/position requires? I think it's OK for the highlanders forward pack to be shuffled around and run non-standard selections to accommodate Thomson but not the All Blacks.

But for Vito v. Thomson

If Vito does not start dominating oppositions physically then I'd rather have Thomson on the field he talked up the physical battle against the Irish then got smashed around by them in the first test. Vito needs a bit of mongrel in him, start throwing that size and strength of his around. Because in terms of stature he has an edge over the other two.

even though Thomson covers ground and tackles like a 7, jumps in a lineout like a lock and runs around the park on the wing (at times basically standing in front of the winger). The only two things he does like a 6 is pack down on that side of the scrum and wear the number 6 on his shirt.

Though I have seen stats that show that Thomson gives away twice as many penalties as messam or vito per playing time. He's also high up on giving away turnovers.

Though maybe I'm still ****** off about 2011 when Thomson gave away 4 penalties to the springboks in one game 3 were kicked for points (9 points) and the 4th killed one of the All Blacks best attacking positions in that game (unnecessary penalty given away on attack mid field about 15m from the springbok line). Then a couple of days later Liam Messam was dropped from the squad. The mind boggles....

Reality is there is very very little between the three, actually between the 4 if you include Kaino. It was just that Kaino's strengths fitted in best with what the All Blacks needed. Plus he prob was there first and took his chance best.

I agree Thomson is crap at 7 and has been even for the highlanders. But that just frustrates me even more when it comes to Messam being dropped. Because before the series begun I think Henry said that Thomson and Messam were going to cover 7. Thomson got his chance and blew it and Messam did not get a chance even though his best game of the year for the chiefs was the one game he played 7! Which was against the sharks!

I don't think it's right to blame Messam for Thomson's performance or the result. Sure he did not set the park alight but he didn't give away a penalty, or miss a tackle he was near the top of the tackle and Ruck arrival stats and did ok carrying the ball. Also quite clearly playing within himself somewhat and who can blame him? As I understand he was the only player in the All Black squad that played every minute of every regular season game in super rugby and clearly looked like he needed a bit of a break at the end of it. Like the whole All Black team he was only playing at 50-60% against fiji and maybe only 80% against South Africa.

Then what happened? Vito who was in blistering ITM cup form came into the squad, got some time on the park but really did not fire a shot, looked a shadow of the player that was rocking the house in ITM. Thomson played the next week and got injured and missed a tackle that allowed Australia to win the game and the Tri Nations... An example of where I think a solid mistake free performance like what Messam was producing could have been enough keep the result in NZ's favor. And it's also worth noting that Messam has missed like one game to injury in the last three years, and even that was minor and he could have played. He just never gets injured.

the most frustrating thing I find is that Messam was the best pick and go forward in the whole of super rugby, it was his trademark in 2011. Then for the Tri nations and early world cup games the All Blacks did not use pick and go at all - totally out of the game plan. But lo when the business end of the competition started - the games that actually mattered, the must win games... Pick and go became central to the All Blacks game plan, obviously a deliberate strategy! But where was New Zealand's best pick and go forward?

You would think to make a change like that and basically shatter a guys dream there would be good reason for it. But not only was there no really good reason for it, it turned out to be an unnecessary decision and actually a bad decision.

I'm sure people will nit pick over a few details of my argument but overall I'm sure people will see my point.

/rant over (for now)

Starting to really look forward to this weekend, even as a chiefs fan super rugby for me is mostly a competition between players for All Black selection! This is when the season really begins!

You're really starting to turn me to the Messam bandwagon.

Not that I didn't think he was a good player before, but by the looks of it, he has been vastly overlooked.

 

[Larksea]

You're really starting to turn me to the Messam bandwagon.

Not that I didn't think he was a good player before, but by the looks of it, he has been vastly overlooked.

OK lets man hug, two second rule! lol

 

[admartian]

OK lets man hug, two second rule! lol

Remember that only the torsos touch; making an 'A' shape.

Touch. Pause...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I am withdrawing my support of Thomo...i would rather the played for Otago...does anyone have Hansen's number so i can tell him?

 

[Larksea]

I want to know what's happened to Anthony Boric

he has not been named in North Harbors ITM cup squad

 

[Darwin]

I agree Thomson is crap at 7 and has been even for the highlanders. But that just frustrates me even more when it comes to Messam being dropped. Because before the series begun I think Henry said that Thomson and Messam were going to cover 7. Thomson got his chance and blew it and Messam did not get a chance even though his best game of the year for the chiefs was the one game he played 7! Which was against the sharks!

I don't think it's right to blame Messam for Thomson's performance or the result. Sure he did not set the park alight but he didn't give away a penalty, or miss a tackle he was near the top of the tackle and Ruck arrival stats and did ok carrying the ball. Also quite clearly playing within himself somewhat and who can blame him? As I understand he was the only player in the All Black squad that played every minute of every regular season game in super rugby and clearly looked like he needed a bit of a break at the end of it. Like the whole All Black team he was only playing at 50-60% against fiji and maybe only 80% against South Africa.

Then what happened? Vito who was in blistering ITM cup form came into the squad, got some time on the park but really did not fire a shot, looked a shadow of the player that was rocking the house in ITM. Thomson played the next week and got injured and missed a tackle that allowed Australia to win the game and the Tri Nations... An example of where I think a solid mistake free performance like what Messam was producing could have been enough keep the result in NZ's favor. And it's also worth noting that Messam has missed like one game to injury in the last three years, and even that was minor and he could have played. He just never gets injured.

the most frustrating thing I find is that Messam was the best pick and go forward in the whole of super rugby, it was his trademark in 2011. Then for the Tri nations and early world cup games the All Blacks did not use pick and go at all - totally out of the game plan. But lo when the business end of the competition started - the games that actually mattered, the must win games... Pick and go became central to the All Blacks game plan, obviously a deliberate strategy! But where was New Zealand's best pick and go forward?

You would think to make a change like that and basically shatter a guys dream there would be good reason for it. But not only was there no really good reason for it, it turned out to be an unnecessary decision and actually a bad decision.

I'm sure people will nit pick over a few details of my argument but overall I'm sure people will see my point.

/rant over (for now)

Starting to really look forward to this weekend, even as a chiefs fan super rugby for me is mostly a competition between players for All Black selection! This is when the season really begins!

I'm certainly not only blaming Messam for Thomson giving away four penalties, but his performance (and that of others I mentioned...which I'm sure you ignored as they weren't from Waikato ) were a contributing factor (though the fact Thomson was playing at 7 was probably the major factor). I don't think Messam's performance was as good as you are suggesting either. Stats obviously vary amongst sites, but these stats suggest that Messam did miss a few tackles (he made 11/14 [79%], compared to 17/17 for Thomson), made a few metres with ball in hand (26m, versus 48m for Thomson), and was 4th amongst forwards for breakdown arrivals (Thomson was second behind Sam Whitelock). He didn't seem to get himself involved near as much as he is capable of, which I think was one of the major reasons he was dropped (which I didn't necessarily agree with).

In terms of Boric, I haven't heard anything on him over the last 2 months - I assume it is still a case of 'wait and see if his neck gets better'.

Anyways, back on topic.... have you and admartian stopped hugging yet? Last time I looked you had simply touched then paused - this could be the longest hug on record!

 

[Larksea]

http://www.haka.co.nz/haka-column.php?story_id=793&locations=ab_general

i generally use these starts if they have them, pretty reliable

I think they prove my point, Messams stats kinda showed he had a quiet but accurate game by his standards.
This list shows Thomson missed 2 tackles and Messam missed 0
Thomson carried more meters and was important in the lineout and made a LOT of tackles like he always does. BUT GAVE AWAY 4 penalties and won 0 turnovers to show for it. And what the stats don't show is that three of the penalties he gave away were kicked for points and the 4th penalty he gave away was a needless attacking penalty in perfect attacking position mid field inside the springbok 22. They were very silly penalties

That game from an all black perspective the main reasons it was lost were from Thomson's penalties and the inability of the team to capitalize on the blistering line breaks Dagg Made. He made some amazing runs but instead of securing possession of making sure he linked he over committed went to ground and turned the ball over basically every time.

 

[Larksea]

Aussie side named:

Australia: Kurtley Beale, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Rob Horne, Anthony Fainga'a, Digby Ioane, Berrick Barnes, Will Genia, Scott Higginbotham, David Pocock (c), Dave Dennis, Nathan Sharpe, Sitaleki Timani, Sekope Kepu, Tatafu Polota Nau, Benn Robinson . Reserves: Stephen Moore, James Slipper, Rob Simmons, Radike Samo, Michael Hooper, Nick Phipps, Drew Mitchell.