RBS 6 Nations - Italy vs England (11/02/2012, 16:00)

[Peat]

On the flipside, Graham Henry has publicly advocated not bothering with players who won't be around at the next World Cup...

Right now England have got themselves into a gigantic hole. This is not only in terms of player development, but in terms of repairing morale and confidence, both inside the camp and without. We can't afford to take a gradual softly softly approach. We needed a major revamp - and have got it.

That didn't include room for Easter. Even leaving aside contentions that dropping him was good for morale, it was the right call in terms of player development, as England really are staring at a black hole of experienced international 8s. It's a problem that needs sorting now rather than later. So far it has cost England nothing. I suspect its going to continue to cost England nothing - I do not see Easter making a particular difference to any of the upcoming results. The new coach, whoever he may be (although I suspect and hope not Lancaster), now has far better options.

End of the day, it's all a rather futile argument, because Lanny agrees with us and not Duck. So nyaaaah. Although I wish he hadn't replaced him with Dowson (despite a fair game against Italy) as that has robbed a lot of the benefit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Shame Haskell went to Japan, he'd be a better option at 8 than Dowson and at 7 than Robshaw.

 

[TedParker]

What was the thinking behind going to Japan anyway?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What was the thinking behind going to Japan anyway?

He signed for Highlanders in the Super XV, but there's a massive gap between the end of the RWC and the start of the Super Rugby season, so went to Japan for the bit in between the two.


We've got a Q&A with him going live this evening/tomorrow, so keep an eye out

 

[Robert Prosser]

What was the thinking behind going to Japan anyway?

My guess would be the money along with helping getting the game to a higer standard in Japan.

 

[big ginger 8]

Do people think Haskell can play 7? Or just that he's better there than your other options? He's a 6 or an 8.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do people think Haskell can play 7? Or just that he's better there than your other options? He's a 6 or an 8.

He's a better 7 than the other two, but definitely best at 6, then 8, then 7.
He played 7 for England recently (Was it through the Six Nations or through the RWC? can't remember which) and played well there. Wasn't like your traditional 7, but did better at the breakdown than you'd expect, and his work rate was quality.

 

[Darwin]

Do people think Haskell can play 7? Or just that he's better there than your other options? He's a 6 or an 8.

Do people think Sean O'Brien can play 7?

I don't believe anyone thinks he is a genuine 7, but he is possibly a better 7 than Robshaw (and will possibly be playing quite a bit at 7 for the Highlanders this year).

 

[big ginger 8]

Do people think Sean O'Brien can play 7?

I don't believe anyone thinks he is a genuine 7, but he is possibly a better 7 than Robshaw (and will possibly be playing quite a bit at 7 for the Highlanders this year).

I was actually gonna say he's a worse version of SO'B but thought that would seem trollish.

 

[Peat]

Shame Haskell went to Japan, he'd be a better option at 8 than Dowson and at 7 than Robshaw.

Do people think Sean O'Brien can play 7?

I don't believe anyone thinks he is a genuine 7, but he is possibly a better 7 than Robshaw (and will possibly be playing quite a bit at 7 for the Highlanders this year).

You're going to have to explain those ones to me boys because they read like utter hyperbole. Robshaw is first in support of the ball carrier more often than both, a harder worker than both and far better at linking up play than both. I know Robshaw's not exactly the Neil Back pure-breed openside, but Haskell and O'Brien? Really? Next you'll be telling me Dan Cole's a better openside than Robshaw because he's won more turnovers.

 

[Teh Mite]

Robshaw is a ****ing blindside.


I ****ing hate this forum at times...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You're going to have to explain those ones to me boys because they read like utter hyperbole. Robshaw is first in support of the ball carrier more often than both, a harder worker than both and far better at linking up play than both. I know Robshaw's not exactly the Neil Back pure-breed openside, but Haskell and O'Brien? Really? Next you'll be telling me Dan Cole's a better openside than Robshaw because he's won more turnovers.

Go back and watch any of Haskells games in the 7 shirt - he put in better 7 performances than Robshaw has.
It's a "lesser of two evils" situation, but he is the lesser.
Ideally we'd have Robshaw at 6 and Haskell on the bench for at 8, but if one was going to play 7 then Haskell is better.

Robshaw is a ****ing blindside.

Nuh uh, he's got a 7 on his back so he's an openside!

 

[psychic duck]

Exactly what racing said. You wouldn't drop an older player who is miles ahead of the next player (eg how Wales won't be dropping players like Adam Jones for youth and for what it's worth, I'd still pick a 29 year old JSD), but holding off on introducing a younger player to the international scene might offset their development. Would Warburton be the player he is now if Gatland had stuck with M.Williams for another year, same with Faletau and Powell/Ryan Jones, same with North and whichever more experienced Welsh winger etc. The English approach would have probably been to continue playing the older players (eg Moody, Tindall, Borthwick) then wonder a few years down the line why there are no talented young 5s/7s/13s in the country able to make the step up. There are, they've just not been developed!

For the first point, Warburton was something I give Gatland credit for, he was behind Martyn Williams for club/country, but Williams was declining post 2009 Lions tour and Gatland started him against Italy in 2010, and then Williams decided to rest over the summer tour so he got a run, still though Gatland got Williams out of retirement in 2008 as the reserve 7's at that time were poor, planning for the immediate not 2015

If anybody saw Faletau's immense performance against the Ospreys in 2011 and then selected Powelly who was getting beat up at bars, and Ryan Jones who as explained earlier has lost pace and was no longer suited to 8, they would have been mad to not pick Faletau it was obvious as he was clearly the best player regardless of age, his selection wasn't thinking about development it was thinking that he was the best player there

same with North, he had scored several tries at the start of the season before his debut and at the time Wales had several injured wingers (so many that Cardiff reserve Czekaj even managed a cap during North's debut), so it was quite obvious he was the best player available

you also can't compare England to Wales selections, as Wales have a much smaller player pool

On the flipside, Graham Henry has publicly advocated not bothering with players who won't be around at the next World Cup...

Right now England have got themselves into a gigantic hole. This is not only in terms of player development, but in terms of repairing morale and confidence, both inside the camp and without. We can't afford to take a gradual softly softly approach. We needed a major revamp - and have got it.

That didn't include room for Easter. Even leaving aside contentions that dropping him was good for morale, it was the right call in terms of player development, as England really are staring at a black hole of experienced international 8s. It's a problem that needs sorting now rather than later. So far it has cost England nothing. I suspect its going to continue to cost England nothing - I do not see Easter making a particular difference to any of the upcoming results. The new coach, whoever he may be (although I suspect and hope not Lancaster), now has far better options.

End of the day, it's all a rather futile argument, because Lanny agrees with us and not Duck. So nyaaaah. Although I wish he hadn't replaced him with Dowson (despite a fair game against Italy) as that has robbed a lot of the benefit.

Henry selected players like Somerville, MacDonald and So'oialo in 2008 who weren't around for 2011

and this isn't about Easter, it's about the silly "building" for 2015 nonsense

the World Cup is a lot about fortune than planning, France and Wales were the most successful European teams yet their squads had no relevance to any project begun in 2008

the matches are one offs, so you cannot build about the unknown circumstances at the time

 

[Peat]

Go back and watch any of Haskells games in the 7 shirt - he put in better 7 performances than Robshaw has.
It's a "lesser of two evils" situation, but he is the lesser.
Ideally we'd have Robshaw at 6 and Haskell on the bench for at 8, but if one was going to play 7 then Haskell is better.

I assume you're referring to the 6N games last year, as those are the only times I can think of Haskell wearing the 7 shirt, although I believe he's worn it a few times for Stade - but then the French play left and right flankers most the time so that doesn't matter too much. These would be the same 6N games where Haskell packed down on the blindside and our breakdown got absolutely taken apart by both Scotland and Ireland? I watched them, and I don't think Haskell's a better openside based on that. He's probably a better jackal, but that's it, he doesn't have the brain or hands for the rest of it and is often too busy as the main ball carrier. He was our best back-row forward during the tournament, yup, but an openside - no. What he was great at was taking the ball on as a carrier (not a 7's job in a million years) and making tons of tackles (same as Robshaw has, which is apparently a 6 only job).

I've seen Robshaw do a very effective job as a linking and supporting back-row - a 7's job imo - a lot of times. I've not seen Haskell do it. Robshaw's not doing a great amount of it so far in his international career, but since we're transparently playing a pair of 6.5s, I refuse to judge him as a 7. And no, Robshaw's never been a complete 7 package, but he ticks far more boxes than Haskell. Or O'Brien.

 

[Teh Mite]

I'm yet to see Robshaw tackle a halfback or win a turnover on the ground. Wonderful openside skills on display...

 

[Darwin]

You're going to have to explain those ones to me boys because they read like utter hyperbole. Robshaw is first in support of the ball carrier more often than both, a harder worker than both and far better at linking up play than both. I know Robshaw's not exactly the Neil Back pure-breed openside, but Haskell and O'Brien? Really? Next you'll be telling me Dan Cole's a better openside than Robshaw because he's won more turnovers.

Suggesting that Haskell is possibly a better 7 than Robshaw is 'utter hyperbole'? I sense you have a very different definition of hyperbole than the rest of us

To be fair I'm only judging them on international performances, but after watching Englands first two six nations games it is pretty clear that Robshaw is not a 7. I suppose it depends what you consider the major role of a 7 to be: for me they need to being huge amounts of work at the break-down, and offer a strong linking game with the backs. I don't have the stats from the Italy match, but during the Scotland match he was amongst the 1st 3 player to the breakdown a total 19 times - the same number as Dowson (who only played 68 minutes), and less than Croft. Therefore he was hitting less breakdowns than either Croft or Dowson, and he wasn't overly effective at the breakdowns he was at either. In contrast Rennie (a genuine 7) was amongst the first three at 45 breakdowns - the same number as the other two Scottish loose-forwards (Strokosch and Denton) combined, and was very effective at slowing down opposition ball, and securing quick ball for the team. I thought Robshaw's support play was pretty good, but I'd rather have an openside that is brilliant at the breakdown and poor at linking with the backs than one that is poor at the breakdown and great at linking with the backs.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Haskell is a great 7, but last time I saw him play in the 7 shirt (for England vs Argentina at the RWC) he had a very strong game. He was surprisingly effective at the breakdown, and linked well with the backs - indeed I think he was the pick of the English forwards in that match. I certainly wouldn't pick him over Robshaw in the England team as a 6 (as I really rate Robshaw as a 6), but I would (just) pick him over Robshaw as a 7.

 

[Peat]

Suggesting that Haskell is possibly a better 7 than Robshaw is 'utter hyperbole'? I sense you have a very different definition of hyperbole than the rest of us

To be fair I'm only judging them on international performances, but after watching Englands first two six nations games it is pretty clear that Robshaw is not a 7. I suppose it depends what you consider the major role of a 7 to be: for me they need to being huge amounts of work at the break-down, and offer a strong linking game with the backs. I don't have the stats from the Italy match, but during the Scotland match he was amongst the 1st 3 player to the breakdown a total 19 times - the same number as Dowson (who only played 68 minutes), and less than Croft. Therefore he was hitting less breakdowns than either Croft or Dowson, and he wasn't overly effective at the breakdowns he was at either. In contrast Rennie (a genuine 7) was amongst the first three at 45 breakdowns - the same number as the other two Scottish loose-forwards (Strokosch and Denton) combined, and was very effective at slowing down opposition ball, and securing quick ball for the team. I thought Robshaw's support play was pretty good, but I'd rather have an openside that is brilliant at the breakdown and poor at linking with the backs than one that is poor at the breakdown and great at linking with the backs.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Haskell is a great 7, but last time I saw him play in the 7 shirt (for England vs Argentina at the RWC) he had a very strong game. He was surprisingly effective at the breakdown, and linked well with the backs - indeed I think he was the pick of the English forwards in that match. I certainly wouldn't pick him over Robshaw in the England team as a 6 (as I really rate Robshaw as a 6), but I would (just) pick him over Robshaw as a 7.

Oh wow... stats *drools* I presume we're looking at Attacking OOA 1st 3? I have to say, I see reasons for caution with these stats (they seem to be counting kickoffs received under possession won, which I think's a little off), but they look at least as good as epsn... interesting to note that in the game you pick out Haskell, Croft has more hits under Attacking OOA 1st 3 and made more passes and arguably from raw stats therefore did more of an openside's job than the Hask did

My argument to Robshaw's ability to play 7 is largely based on the traits shown and behaviour displayed in domestic games where he's a very good 7 on attacking ball (on defensive ball his positioning is pure 6). Has he shown that at international level? No. He's taking on a ton of the small carries, which makes it difficult for him to get involved in the linking (although he started to show it vs Italy imo) and I'd say Lancaster is very obviously using them as a pair of 6.5s - so it's only fair to judge them as that. Fair enough, if you're only watching international rugby, then yes there's not a lot between Haskell and O'Brien and Robshaw - with Robshaw probably on the wrong end of it. Take into account entire skillsets from domestic watching and I really can't see it in the slightest. Haskell and O'Brien are both fantastic wrecking balls and great athletes (better than Robshaw) but I don't think they're any better at securing their own ball (O'Brien looks worse atm, but is out of form), are far behind as link players (probably because they're amazing wrecking balls tbh) and aren't wildly better at securing ball on the deck, if at all. Haskell was last I saw him, O'Brien isn't at the moment but he's off form and a couple of years ago he was looking really promising at that art - but right now, no.

It's a fair point about brilliant at the breakdown vs. poor linking with the backs and vice versa but I don't think Haskell's brilliant at the breakdown and O'Brien definitely isn't - while if Robshaw can bring his Quins form over (if) he is brilliant at linking with the backs.

And of course I know what hyperbolic means, I was being mildly hyperbolic myself. However, I am quite serious about the argument - Robshaw's superior continuity work rules out the tiny edge Haskell has on jackaling for me, while O'Brien's in really poor form as a 7. Although Robshaw's playing as a 6.5 anyway and I'm looking forwards to seeing how it will work against Wales.

 

[Seaton]

I more of a parabolic kind of guy...

 

[Darwin]

Oh wow... stats *drools* I presume we're looking at Attacking OOA 1st 3? I have to say, I see reasons for caution with these stats (they seem to be counting kickoffs received under possession won, which I think's a little off), but they look at least as good as epsn... interesting to note that in the game you pick out Haskell, Croft has more hits under Attacking OOA 1st 3 and made more passes and arguably from raw stats therefore did more of an openside's job than the Hask did

I was looking at both Attacking OOA 1st 3 and defensive OOA 1st 3, as I believe both are equally important for an openside flanker. I'm certainly cautious about using any stats - as you say the accuracy of the stats is relatively unknown, and the stats don't tell us how effective the players were at each of the tasks (some players are far more effective when they get to the breakdown than others!). You are right that Croft had arguably better 'openside stats' than Haskell in the RWC game, but if you look at the stats throughout the 6 nations last season Haskell was certainly hitting more breakdowns than any other English back-row forward. Just so you know, I'm certainly not suggesting that Haskell is a good international openside either - I think that openside is by far his least effective position. I'm not judging Robshaws openside play solely on the basis of the stats of this single match (and I would be interested in seeing his stats versus Italy), however I do think stats, if used correctly and with caution, can provide a somewhat objective way to assess various aspects of the game.

My argument to Robshaw's ability to play 7 is largely based on the traits shown and behaviour displayed in domestic games where he's a very good 7 on attacking ball (on defensive ball his positioning is pure 6). Has he shown that at international level? No. He's taking on a ton of the small carries, which makes it difficult for him to get involved in the linking (although he started to show it vs Italy imo) and I'd say Lancaster is very obviously using them as a pair of 6.5s - so it's only fair to judge them as that. Fair enough, if you're only watching international rugby, then yes there's not a lot between Haskell and O'Brien and Robshaw - with Robshaw probably on the wrong end of it. Take into account entire skillsets from domestic watching and I really can't see it in the slightest. Haskell and O'Brien are both fantastic wrecking balls and great athletes (better than Robshaw) but I don't think they're any better at securing their own ball (O'Brien looks worse atm, but is out of form), are far behind as link players (probably because they're amazing wrecking balls tbh) and aren't wildly better at securing ball on the deck, if at all. Haskell was last I saw him, O'Brien isn't at the moment but he's off form and a couple of years ago he was looking really promising at that art - but right now, no.

As I said, I don't see any domestic rugby so that is likely where much of the difference of opinion is coming from (and I'm certainly not claiming my opinion is right, as I'm sure you've seen substantially more of the players involved than I have!).

It's a fair point about brilliant at the breakdown vs. poor linking with the backs and vice versa but I don't think Haskell's brilliant at the breakdown and O'Brien definitely isn't - while if Robshaw can bring his Quins form over (if) he is brilliant at linking with the backs. And of course I know what hyperbolic means, I was being mildly hyperbolic myself. However, I am quite serious about the argument - Robshaw's superior continuity work rules out the tiny edge Haskell has on jackaling for me, while O'Brien's in really poor form as a 7. Although Robshaw's playing as a 6.5 anyway and I'm looking forwards to seeing how it will work against Wales.

I agree that Haskell isn't 'brilliant' at the breakdown, but I think he is reasonably good in this area - at least better than Robshaw. Perhaps my statment should have been: "I'd rather have an openside that is 'reasonably good' at the breakdown and 'just ok' at linking with the backs, rather than an openside that is 'just ok' at the breakdown and 'great' at linking with the backs" .

O'Brien is a slightly different case in my opinion - not sure whether I'd rate him higher or lower than Robshaw/Haskell as a 7 (i.e. I don't rate him as a 7 either). He actually seems to hit a lot of breakdowns (far more than Robshaw/Haskell), he just doesn't seem to be overly effective when he gets there (that is one good reason that rugby stats can be very mis-leading - if not used with caution). I think he is completely wasted at 7, as he spends so much energy at the breakdown, but doesn't really achieve much for his team in doing this! Incidentally I'd actually prefer Robshaw over O'Brien at 6, as I prefer a 'tighter' 6, rather than one running out in the backline all the time (now I'm sure to have wound up the Ireland fans!).

It will certainly be interesting to see how Robshaw goes at 7 versus Wales (assuming he starts their again), especially if Warburton and/or Tipuric are back!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Warburton or Tipuric are back I'm very much not looking forward to seeing how Robshaw goes against them.