RBS 6 Nations - Italy vs England (11/02/2012, 16:00)

[gingergenius]

Just got back from Rome, 9 hours door to door was not fun, but it's a beautiful city and a great rugby weekend (even if I was soaked and frozen for several hours before, during and after the match).

Thoughts:

everybody is being incredibly cynical. I can hardly remember being stuck in a snowstorm quite as thick as the one that belted down a few hours before kickoff; and the pitch was a blanket of pure white until they half-arsedly decided to clear it. People bemoaning England's attack - I'd love to see any other team play expansive rugby in those conditions, not to mention the potential banana-skin of Italy away and a team that still needs to gel.

Thoughts:

Front row, all excellent. They're all young and will continue to improve, they're good scrummagers and I was impressed by all of them in the loose.

Lineouts need some serious work. It's all very well having Botha there for grunt, but Palmer is doing **** all good here. He's an old player not doing his job, time for him to go. We'll see what Lawes brings to the table there, or someone else please.

Back row - it was obvious before Scotland, and more obvious now. Morgan must start; Robshaw must play 6; a 7 (Seymour) must play 7. If people are desperate to shoehorn Croft in, I'd rather see him at 5 than partnering Robshaw on the flanks.

Backs - Dickson for Youngs, quite clearly. Flood will be back, as will Tuilagi. Barritt has put his marker down. Despite what you all say, Farrell's kicking (again in shite conditions under pressure) won us the match. I'd be tempted to go 10. Farrell, 12. Barritt, 13. Tuilagi for Wales with the aim of easing Flood back in. And once again I'll repeat for the Farrell haters who want him dropped, since when do people think a Barritt- Tuilagi partnership in midfield is going to be more creative???

Back 3 - Ashton needs some time on the sidelines. I'll forgive Foden's worst ever game in an England shirt, and Strettle's not done much wrong. Sharples/ May will do nicely.

Other than that, stupid errors need to be ironed out, I'm going to be optimistic and blame conditions and inexperience. We looked a lot better with Morgan and Dickson providing more go-forward and quick service. Hopefully London will have warmed up in 2 weeks time and we'll get a decent game of rugby - an open game will play into Welsh hands but England need to be tested in fair conditions before we can properly criticise them for lacking a cutting edge.

 

[j'nuh]

Barritt-Tuilagi wouldn't be more creative, but it would create more meters, get us over the gainline more often and provide a better platform to attack off of.

 

[Olliekooga]

"Front row, all excellent"

Ummmm NO
Corbisiero was getting an education off of Castro before he went off. Look at the first few scrums Corbs get folded up and marched all over the park
Hartley stood up at almost every scrum a decent ref (i.e. one who knows anything about scrummaging) would have pinged him off the park

As for Farrel at 10, If he wasnt kicking I dont think anyone would have known he was on the park. What in that performance makes you think he can step into 10?

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

So who can play 7 for England? If Stuart Lancaster is building for the future I can not see the point of playing a backrow full of 6's. Morgan should start at 8 with Robshaw moving to 6 and a 7 should be brought in. I see the best choice at 7 being David Seymour. I know people will want Tom Wood to play there but he is more a 6 than he is a 7 and I feel that he should be challenging Robshaw for the number 6. The other player that England should be having a look at is Matt Kvesic who is a genuine number 7. I know that he is young but I really feel that he could be the answer moving forward.

David Seymour?


Tom Wood
?

Matt Kvesic?

 

[mstar]

It's a difficult one the number seven spot. I really don't know to put a rookie in against Wales is a big call. Robshaw has done well so I want see Lancaster changing anything, so we will continue with a six playing in seven position. Who would be better at seven out of wood and robshaw????

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

There's not a lot to say, pleased we avoided the 'shock' but it wasn't great. We biffed this lot with ease at HQ last year so it can hardly be labelled an improvement. Having said that, with Tuilagi and Lawes returning, this England team should be capable of some big hits on the Welsh. I'm still concerned by Roberts getting in Hodgson's channel, but not sure I'd drop Farrell or want him as an international FH just yet.

EDIT: Compared to Croft's pretty boy take on back-row rugger, Morgan's voluptuousness makes me salivate.

 

[no-1-rugby-fan]

The atrocious playing conditions made for a scrappy encounter, littered with errors. England showed yet more grit to win, but will have to improve considerably to stand any chance against Wales, France and Ireland.

 

[Big Ewis]

Too bad. That was their one chance in a million years...
And they chose to actually kick the penalty in stead of going for the try at 15-19...

 

[Sorp111]

I like most have been looking forward to the return of Lawes - not sure though,on the basis of return game against Gloucester (admittedly out of position at 6) he will bring a lot more than poor discipline in the short term. He seems to take quite a few games to get back into the groove after lay offs. As a new comer to these forums my take on the Italy game was, on balance, positive (they won, discipline was good, scrum solid) however I am fearful of what the lies ahead. I don't think Lancaster can magic up some great players and the least I hope for is that the current group grow together and as individuals. The main concerns I have are ,one, the back row as Croft (great on harder spring/Autumn pitches) and Dowson don't give us much at the breakdown or go forward and 2 the midfield balance - Farrel is a nerveless kicker and solid defender but not an attacking option. I take it for granted that Youngs poor form will see him replaced.

 

[Peat]

He's selfish with the ball, slow, lazy and poor at the breakdown. His saving grace is that he's a good catcher in the lineout/from the restarts, often making some ridiculous one handed takes.
He may be playing well atm, but that's a flash in the pan compared to all the dross he's served up over the years.

Easter's always been very good for Quins to be fair.

This has always translated into a fairly middling mix for England. He's a useful enough international player, but he's no messiah, and he's not good enough to yank back and spend another season not developing people, even though I'd agree he's the best English 8 available.

 

[Zulu-Cow]

A really close game as i expected, Italy did themselves proud and there is no chance of England wining the 6 nations my best is still on the Welsh!

 

[j'nuh]

Too bad. That was their one chance in a million years...
And they chose to actually kick the penalty in stead of going for the try at 15-19...

I thought it was the right decision tbh. Kick the penalty, get possession at the kick-off, and set yourself up for a drop-goal.

 

[madflyhalf]

So did I.

Even though mauling and lineout were working well, they still had 8mins on the clock to go, I would have gone for 3 pointers too!

 

[gingergenius]

Why oh why are people even thinking about Easter??

We've spent the past few months talking about how excited we are England are going to be building for 2015. I've spent the past four years moaning that we never bothered to start building for 2011 until halfway through 2010.

This new England team should be a continuation of the last efforts to rebuild. There was a lot right about the Ashtons, Fodens, Coles etc. who came to prominence under Johnson. These players, provided they are on form, will all be around for the next four years and their experience will be valuable. But it is time for the old guys to go. We've been a bit unlucky with injury so I can kind of see why Hodgson's been recalled, and similarly with Palmer. But at 8, Ben Morgan is a young guy really sticking his hand up, and is the most exciting option we've had at 8 in a long time. In the wings, Thomas Waldrom is playing good rugby for Leicester, Luke Narraway looks good for Gloucester and further down the line there may be new potential from the likes of Carl Fearns and Billy Vunipola. This in mind, Easter's name should be nowhere near the squad, because while he won't sort our lineout problems/ add to the potency of the attack, he will take up space that could be used for a younger man to gain experience.

Can we please park the mention of recalling any more grandads, it will give us no benefit whatsoever, short term or long term. None of them were class enough in their primes to warrant going out with a bang now.

------

What is important is that England stay positive. If I were Stuart Lancaster, I'd pretend that the Wales game is a clean slate for us. We've got two difficult away games against poor opposition in poor conditions out of the way, not to mention some key injuries. Now with players returning, Twickenham beckons and it's time to start afresh with playing rugby the way it needs to be played in order to become a world class team.

Gameplan is clearly important, and it's vital that the players and coaches all know what to do at what times, in a way that best suits the personnel on the field. England will be big underdogs against what looks like a very strong Welsh team - this plays into our favour. Losing to Wales this time round will be no embarrassment, so there should be no pressure on England to 'dig in' and win ugly. England need to advertise to Twickenham exactly how they want to play the game, and if they lose 32-25, then at least that might show that we've set the wheel in motion.

Selection is also a major issue.

Prop wise, England look reasonably healthy. Corbisiero is strong in the loose and a decent scrummager. Cole is a strong scrummager who is decent in the loose. Stevens is the weakest scrummager and the strongest in the loose, and a good option off the bench. All will be around for 2015 and will improve during that period, although it would be nice if Corbs signed for Saints to see what Dorian West could do with him.

Hooker, Dylan Hartley imo seems to have grown this 6N, with his starting place assured and the fact that he is one of the most experienced players. He'll be a solid option until 2015, but it would be nice to identify some backup/ someone better between now and then. Webber will do for now, but he'll never be better than Hartley.

Second row is interesting. Ideally you want a hard man, and a lineout expert. As far as hard men go, we have Botha who's been decent so far, Lawes returning from injury and Attwood waiting in the sidelines. Lineout experts - Palmer who I think needs to go, Parling who doesn't set pulses racing, and Robson who is a bit of an unknown quantity. Getting the engine room right is very important, and it's a difficult decision to make at the moment, largely because at the moment Botha and Lawes would be the best, but our lineout really needs to improve.

Blindside should be very simple. Robshaw is the captain and should be playing here. Croft is not his 2009 self, Haskell would be my first pick but is unavailable, Dowson shouldn't be involved in this England team, and Clark is a few places higher than he deserves in the pecking order.

Openside is not simple, but I stress that we must pick an attempt at a genuine openside. Wood is no Martyn Williams, and no Pocock, but he does occasionally pretend to be a proper 7. Returning from injury, he's the best option, and David Seymour followed by Andy Saull should be in the wings as backup.

Number 8 just got a whole load easier. Morgan has stuck his hand up, while Waldrom should be a reliable backup for now.

Scrum half, and the immediate option has to be Lee Dickson, hoping that Care gets his act together and Youngs rediscovers his form at some point over the next 4 years, with Joe Simpson another strong potential option.

Fly half and midfield should be vastly improved against Wales. With Flood and Tuilagi back, we can get rid of Hodgson, who is too old. The question is, will both returning Tigers be on top of their game? Ideally, I'd suggest a Flood-Farrell-Tuilagi axis, although Flood-Barritt-Tuilagi, Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi, Flood-Farrell-Barritt are all reasonable options accounting on fitness and form over the next fortnight.

Wings have potential for us - there's a lot of attacking class in Ashton, Strettle and Sharples, although their defences are all questionable. I'd drop Ashton so he gets his act together.

Fullback is the least concern. Foden is world class, and with the reliable Brown and mercurial Armitage, we have some outstanding backup, not to mention a number of other strong candidates in the Premiership.

So, I'd pick this team for Wales:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Botha (pending on a proper lineout expert to emerge)
6. Robshaw
7. Wood (if fit, Seymour if not)
8. Morgan
9. Dickson
10. Food (if fit, Farrell if not)
11. Sharples
12. Farrell (if Flood fit, Barritt if not)
13. Tuilagi (if fit, Barritt if not)
14. Strettle
15. Foden

16. Webber
17. Stevens
18. Parling
19. Croft
20. Simpson
21. Barritt (JTH if necessary, Flood if he's only half fit)
22. Brown

 

[Teh Mite]

I worry Ashton won't get his act together... Seen it so many times when a player gets "Englandised" - as in they're good, then they play fir England, the media blows smoke up their ass and it all goes horribly wrong. In the list includes (but not limited to) Ashton, Armitage, Strettle (he's still ****), Geraghty, Sackey, Hipkiss, Cipriani, Care (to an extent), Hodgson (Paul), countless backrow players, Borthwick, Mears, Youngs, and more.

Easter isn't one of those players as he was never any good to begin with.

 

[psychic duck]

Why oh why are people even thinking about Easter??

We've spent the past few months talking about how excited we are England are going to be building for 2015. I've spent the past four years moaning that we never bothered to start building for 2011 until halfway through 2010.

This new England team should be a continuation of the last efforts to rebuild. There was a lot right about the Ashtons, Fodens, Coles etc. who came to prominence under Johnson. These players, provided they are on form, will all be around for the next four years and their experience will be valuable. But it is time for the old guys to go. We've been a bit unlucky with injury so I can kind of see why Hodgson's been recalled, and similarly with Palmer. But at 8, Ben Morgan is a young guy really sticking his hand up, and is the most exciting option we've had at 8 in a long time. In the wings, Thomas Waldrom is playing good rugby for Leicester, Luke Narraway looks good for Gloucester and further down the line there may be new potential from the likes of Carl Fearns and Billy Vunipola. This in mind, Easter's name should be nowhere near the squad, because while he won't sort our lineout problems/ add to the potency of the attack, he will take up space that could be used for a younger man to gain experience.

Can we please park the mention of recalling any more grandads, it will give us no benefit whatsoever, short term or long term. None of them were class enough in their primes to warrant going out with a bang now.

there is too much emphasis on "building" a squad, which to be honest is crap

JUST SELECT THE BEST TEAM

if an old player is no longer worthy of selection (Tindall, Moody etc) or there is a younger player equally as good favour then favour the younger player then of course drop that player, but don't drop an older player who is the best player in that position

answer me this, how were France "building" or "planning" for the 2011 World Cup, they weren't they changed their team loads, and even within the World Cup Lièvremont hadn't fully decided what his best team was and changed a scrum half to fly half, yet they finished runners up

Wales finished fourth, yet they discovered their key fly half in Priestland because Stephen Jones got injured in the warm up to a match against England, it was nothing to do with planning

New Zealand didn't drop Leon MacDonald and Greg Somerville in 2008 because they weren't going to be available in 2011, and moved Kahui from centre to wing at the start of the World Cup, nothing to do with building in 2008

I can't think of any selections from 2008 which had any relevancy to 2011

 

[j_remos]

"Easter WTF"

Completely agree... Never good enough and not the right choice now... We have a lot of players as good and better who are 6-10 years younger..

"Sensible stuff about England"

I agree with everything said...

 

[racingmetrofan]

there is too much emphasis on "building" a squad, which to be honest is crap

JUST SELECT THE BEST TEAM

if an old player is no longer worthy of selection (Tindall, Moody etc) or there is a younger player equally as good favour then favour the younger player then of course drop that player, but don't drop an older player who is the best player in that position

answer me this, how were France "building" or "planning" for the 2011 World Cup, they weren't they changed their team loads, and even within the World Cup Lièvremont hadn't fully decided what his best team was and changed a scrum half to fly half, yet they finished runners up

Wales finished fourth, yet they discovered their key fly half in Priestland because Stephen Jones got injured in the warm up to a match against England, it was nothing to do with planning

New Zealand didn't drop Leon MacDonald and Greg Somerville in 2008 because they weren't going to be available in 2011, and moved Kahui from centre to wing at the start of the World Cup, nothing to do with building in 2008

I can't think of any selections from 2008 which had any relevancy to 2011

But with all the injury related Welsh gains, they hadn't played together long enough or had enough experience to close out against SA, France, and Aus twice... Perhaps if they'd discovered replacements earlier, they might have been a bit better.

Easter isn't actually a particularly good player and with some internationals under his belt, Morgan should be able to do the last bit of developing that'll render him clearly better.

Really your argument would only apply to a situation like 'NZ dropping DC straight after the 2011 world cup and never playing him again to develop someone for 2015'. Which would obviously be a case of dropping a far better player for a less adequete one.

 

[Saintjay]

there is too much emphasis on "building" a squad, which to be honest is crap

JUST SELECT THE BEST TEAM

if an old player is no longer worthy of selection (Tindall, Moody etc) or there is a younger player equally as good favour then favour the younger player then of course drop that player, but don't drop an older player who is the best player in that position

answer me this, how were France "building" or "planning" for the 2011 World Cup, they weren't they changed their team loads, and even within the World Cup Lièvremont hadn't fully decided what his best team was and changed a scrum half to fly half, yet they finished runners up

Wales finished fourth, yet they discovered their key fly half in Priestland because Stephen Jones got injured in the warm up to a match against England, it was nothing to do with planning

New Zealand didn't drop Leon MacDonald and Greg Somerville in 2008 because they weren't going to be available in 2011, and moved Kahui from centre to wing at the start of the World Cup, nothing to do with building in 2008

I can't think of any selections from 2008 which had any relevancy to 2011

So are you saying that Gatlands selections in 2011 have no relevance in 2015 as well?. If it was just as simple as putting the best players together every four years or so, the Lions should be pretty unbeatable. One of the main factors that prevents this is game time together as a team.

 

[j'nuh]

Exactly what racing said. You wouldn't drop an older player who is miles ahead of the next player (eg how Wales won't be dropping players like Adam Jones for youth and for what it's worth, I'd still pick a 29 year old JSD), but holding off on introducing a younger player to the international scene might offset their development. Would Warburton be the player he is now if Gatland had stuck with M.Williams for another year, same with Faletau and Powell/Ryan Jones, same with North and whichever more experienced Welsh winger etc. The English approach would have probably been to continue playing the older players (eg Moody, Tindall, Borthwick) then wonder a few years down the line why there are no talented young 5s/7s/13s in the country able to make the step up. There are, they've just not been developed!