Owen Farrell

[j'nuh]

I'd be more willing to see Farrell at 10 tbf, as long as he doesn't follow the JW path of standing so deep, he may as well be in the crowd.

 

[Luimneach18]

You would say that, we haven't played you yet!

ahah you got me, nah seriously i think he's a really good player i watched him against Italy and Scotland and his kicking is really impressive, havent seen him play 10 though but from what i here from blogs and so on everyone is calling him the new JW, so can anyone tell me what he is like at 10 because i haven't seen him there.

 

[Zed]

England really need an attacking no 10, someone like Cipriani (if he was consistent).

 

[gingergenius]

If we're talking about his career in general, then yes he has every chance of improving his attacking game and becoming a great 12/10.
If we're talking about this Six Nations then I don't think he's the right choice. He'd be a good option on the bench covering flyhalf and centre, and with his kicking game you could bring him on to kick the corners etc.


Having said that, he's not terrible - I think the Wales game will be the real test, as we'll be at home, the weather should be better and we'll see how he handles himself in attack.
If it's not great then we could/should look at switching things around for the final two matches, just to see what our options are within the EPS atm.

But this is the thing. Most of us on here are agreed this Six Nations is the time to be giving young players caps and letting them mature in their England careers. If there were a lot of other players around sticking their hands up then fair enough, but there simply aren't.

Talk about these options, but I'd love to see what the EPS options are that would alter our midfield so significantly that England would be transformed into an attacking force overnight. Because at the moment I see Farrell copping most of the blame for England creating nothing, when nobody else around him has created anything either (in particular Hodgson, who we'd all agree does possess attacking ability). England managed to play some decent rugby at times with Hape at 12, and they managed to play some decent rugby way back when Wilkinson was 10. People don't seem to realise that without a Shane Williams/ Quade Cooper figure, then all attacking platforms are team efforts, created by pressure, quick ball, vision, skill, pace and good lines of attack with convincing dummy runners. The buck does not stop with one guy wearing 12.

 

[Zed]

He lacks pace and that is something that is potentially going to limit his ability to be an attacking force at international level. You look at all the good attacking 10s out there, Carter, QC, Giteau even Cipriani, they all have bags of pace, a decent step and are able to make breaks. Farrell doesn't have that ability and he could affect Englands attacking potential in the backline if he is at 10 or worse 12. Defenders know he doesn't have the pace to beat them on the outside and they know he'll either kick or pass. If he does go by himself, he'll be easily tackled. Players like Quade Cooper have that pace and side-step and defenders know they have to watch him, he sucks in defenders. If he has to play, stick him at 10 & Barritt/Tuilagi in the middle.

 

[Peat]

I'd be more willing to see Farrell at 10 tbf, as long as he doesn't follow the JW path of standing so deep, he may as well be in the crowd.

Everything I've seen of Farrell in as a Sarries shirt says he's a hoof merchant of 10 and that is exactly what you're going to get.

If I were to play Farrell at 10, I'd strongly consider playing Mike Brown - or even just wrangle in Alex Goode - as they're far happier stepping it at first receiver to try something than Foden, whose preference seems to be to hit the line outside 13.

 

[HowieLO6]

England really need a bellend no 10, someone like Cipriani (if he was consistent).

Fixed.

Had all the talent but none of the mental fortitude. If he can sort himself out with Melbourne -and by sort himself out I mean, for starters, not having one of the highest missed tackles numbers, despite not playing nearly all the games (high on the line-break assists though, so kudos there) -then i'd welcome him back. Has great pace and a great feel for the game, but needs to get his head right. Probably needs to stay clear of booze/tarts too.

Personally, I envisage a couple of years of to-ing and fro-ing, before a certain George Ford shows everyone how attacking rugby should be played.

 

[welshglory]

If you think Cipriani's defence is bad. Wait till you see George Ford play.

Ford doesn't play attacking rugby. Hes a very good tactician and kicker. Thats why people were also comparing him to Wilkinson. He doesn't really have the physical attributes to be an attacking player.

 

[Peat]

If you think Cipriani's defence is bad. Wait till you see George Ford play.

Ford doesn't play attacking rugby. Hes a very good tactician and kicker. Thats why people were also comparing him to Wilkinson. He doesn't really have the physical attributes to be an attacking player.

It's a bit harsh to compare Ford, who's still only 18 and clearly has a lot of growing to do (we hope), with Cipriani, who's full grown except for a backbone. One has poor defence because he's physically not up to it yet, the other you have to question his commitment. Cipriani can tackle; he made a fantastic cover tackle in a recent Rebels pre-season game to save a certain try; but often seems to choose not to. I've yet to see Ford shirk a tackle.

Also, you're wrong about Ford and attacking rugby. He's got a fair bit of gas, good vision, a fair step and a beautiful pass off of both hands. Some of his recent work with the U20s has been very good.

 

[Nathaniel Langham]

Fixed.

Had all the talent but none of the mental fortitude. If he can sort himself out with Melbourne -and by sort himself out I mean, for starters, not having one of the highest missed tackles numbers, despite not playing nearly all the games (high on the line-break assists though, so kudos there) -then i'd welcome him back. Has great pace and a great feel for the game, but needs to get his head right. Probably needs to stay clear of booze/tarts too.

Personally, I envisage a couple of years of to-ing and fro-ing, before a certain George Ford shows everyone how attacking rugby should be played.

I think this year will be the making of Cipriani. He has really pulled his head in and looking the goods. Remember he is still only 23.

 

[HowieLO6]

It's a bit harsh to compare Ford, who's still only 18 and clearly has a lot of growing to do (we hope), with Cipriani, who's full grown except for a backbone. One has poor defence because he's physically not up to it yet, the other you have to question his commitment. Cipriani can tackle; he made a fantastic cover tackle in a recent Rebels pre-season game to save a certain try; but often seems to choose not to. I've yet to see Ford shirk a tackle.

Also, you're wrong about Ford and attacking rugby. He's got a fair bit of gas, good vision, a fair step and a beautiful pass off of both hands. Some of his recent work with the U20s has been very good.

This.

He's still growing. We should be thankful that he's not of the 'roided generation. He has had some talent around him in the U20 setup, but lets not forget that he was the youngest player at last years Junior RWC. If anything his recent Six Nations performance - albeit against a weak team - was better still, considering the changes around him.

 

[HowieLO6]

I think this year will be the making of Cipriani. He has really pulled his head in and looking the goods. Remember he is still only 23.

Heard this before. Not sure when, exactly, this happened, but was his brief foray into/with Jordan part of this rejuvination?

 

[Saintjay]

If you think Cipriani's defence is bad. Wait till you see George Ford play.

Ford doesn't play attacking rugby. Hes a very good tactician and kicker. Thats why people were also comparing him to Wilkinson. He doesn't really have the physical attributes to be an attacking player.

I hope you don't mean his size or players like Matthew Morgan and Shane Williams would be doomed. Saying that people rate Morgan and his defence is terrible to say the least.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

In the 2 england games i watched Hodgeson Kicked all our good posession away and then when Farrell was moved to 10 he kicked the rest of the possession away...just like they do at saries. Whoever thought england (with the sarries) backline was going to do anything other than kick the ball all day was misguided. We are a very poor mans south africa.

And all this Farrell talk i hear i've never seen him do anything really well apart from Kick goals. He is not the first choice 12 for sarries so why would he be 1st choice for enlgand?

What england have done with the 12 shirt:

Played Geherty at 12 when he was a 10 at saints (only started a couple of games at 12 which went badly)
Played Hape at 12 when he was starting 13 at bath?
Played Flood at 12 when he is englands bet 10 (at the time).
Played Tindall there who is totaly rubbish and has aways been a 13.
Played Farrell at 12 when he plays either 13 or 10 for his club.

Infact i can't remember the last time a real 12 played for england (apart from barrett who is now in the 13 shirt!) Anyone care to remeber when that was?

 

[Peat]

Farrell, Geraghty and Hape had all been predominantly 12s in Rugby Union at time of play, even if they'd been playing elsewhere for their clubs due to injury/accomodating other players.

edit: More or less anyway. I'm not entirely sure about Geraghty, but seem to recall he mainly played 12 at LI.

 

[nickdnz]

In the 2 england games i watched Hodgeson Kicked all our good posession away and then when Farrell was moved to 10 he kicked the rest of the possession away...just like they do at saries. Whoever thought england (with the sarries) backline was going to do anything other than kick the ball all day was misguided. We are a very poor mans south africa.

And all this Farrell talk i hear i've never seen him do anything really well apart from Kick goals. He is not the first choice 12 for sarries so why would he be 1st choice for enlgand?

What england have done with the 12 shirt:

Played Geherty at 12 when he was a 10 at saints (only started a couple of games at 12 which went badly)
Played Hape at 12 when he was starting 13 at bath?
Played Flood at 12 when he is englands bet 10 (at the time).
Played Tindall there who is totaly rubbish and has aways been a 13.
Played Farrell at 12 when he plays either 13 or 10 for his club.

Infact i can't remember the last time a real 12 played for england (apart from barrett who is now in the 13 shirt!) Anyone care to remeber when that was?

Depends if you see Riki Flutey as a 10 or 12. I see him as a 12, so I'd go with him.

 

[Teh Mite]

Farrell, Geraghty and Hape had all been predominantly 12s in Rugby Union at time of play, even if they'd been playing elsewhere for their clubs due to injury/accomodating other players.

edit: More or less anyway. I'm not entirely sure about Geraghty, but seem to recall he mainly played 12 at LI.

Geraghty had barely played for Booth-And-Catts career-ruining-machine in over a year (certainly not regularly started still always a fly half anyway)and was the form 10 of the entire hemisphere when he got that call up. To my recollection, he never played a single game at centre for Saints, predominantly a fly half and occasionally cover at fullback.

 

[j'nuh]

People don't seem to realise that without a Shane Williams/ Quade Cooper figure, then all attacking platforms are team efforts, created by pressure, quick ball, vision, skill, pace and good lines of attack with convincing dummy runners. The buck does not stop with one guy wearing 12.

Agreed, but there's a domino effect in how the backline can play to their ability. A 10 won't play well unless he gets good service from the 9. The 12/13 won't play good unless the 10 distributes well enough and provides enough meters for the 12/13 to break the gainline and the outside backs won't exploit space unless all the aforementioned happens. One weak link can bring a whole team down, particularly amongst the halfbacks.

It's similar in the forwards. The front row won't scrummage well unless they've got some adequate power coming from behind. Lineout jumpers will wobble if their lifters are being silly or the hooker isn't throwing right. The ball carrying forwards won't get enough momentum going forwards unless they can recycle the ball quickly enough, which involves clearing out effectively etc.

So it is a team effort, but a team effort can be undone by one or two players playing a game that is unsuited to the rest of the players. I don't doubt Farrell could be excellent behind a strong pack, someone who could have easily played the role Wilkinson had in the 2003 team, but we don't have a strong pack, so Farrell will spend most of the match doing clearance kicks after we see our forwards failing to break the gainline. Personally, I'd rather play with someone who can engage the backline and make meters that way, especially through midfield with Tuilagi, and hope this can disrupt the defense enough to get the forwards carrying over the gainline.

 

[Teh Mite]

Agreed, but there's a domino effect in how the backline can play to their ability. A 10 won't play well unless he gets good service from the 9. The 12/13 won't play good unless the 10 distributes well enough and provides enough meters for the 12/13 to break the gainline and the outside backs won't exploit space unless all the aforementioned happens. One weak link can bring a whole team down, particularly amongst the halfbacks.

So we really need

9. Dickson
10. Burns
12. Tuilagi
13. Trinder

*oh shut up Mite, that team wouldn't hoof it away at every chance...

 

[michaelbolton]

So we really need

9. Dickson
10. Burns
12. Tuilagi
13. Trinder

*oh shut up Mite, that team wouldn't hoof it away at every chance...

i would swap trinder for joseph but otherwise that is the way forward, i also think ford will come in for burns before 2015 and same with daly not sure if at 13 or 15 but should be in the team