[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (11/11/2017)

[TRF_Olyy]

it's hard to judge on tackles, Argentina made alot more carries in the final 15 mins compared to the rest of the game.

You're just saying that because you're trying to stop Dan Cole being trebucheted into the sun.

Espn stats are notoriously crappy anyway, the England Facebook page said Hughes made 7 tackles, not 9, earlier.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You're just saying that because you're trying to stop Dan Cole being trebucheted into the sun.

Espn stats are notoriously crappy anyway, the England Facebook page said Hughes made 7 tackles, not 9, earlier.

Nah more about Robshaw who is a massive workhorse in defence.

 

[Nudger]

Yeah we have two proven world class 10's that will see is through to the next two world cups. What we really need to do is throw a meaningless cap there to someone on the off chance we need a third choice.

Of coarse the more world class players we can develop the better

 

[Nudger]

Te'o and Marchant called up by England.

Could we see Ford, Faz and Te'o play.

Teo is still Injured

 

[Nudger]

Of those 3 I would drop Farrell though.

Ford gives us our attacking shape, we would be really dull and one-dimensional with Faz at 10. JJ is pretty vital to our defence, and adds much needed pace to the midfield.

We saw yesterday what happens to our defence without faz our kick chase was non existent

 

[The Jones Boy]

One that happened 5months after the one you're on about

DoH, wrong replay
DoH !

 

[Which Tyler]

I do love that failing to do anything "special" whilst making 0-1 errors a match and still being threatening enough to have 2 defenders on him every match and typically receiving !an and ball is playing badlgg, whilst for another kicking 80% off the tee, making 4-5 errors per match and offering no individual threat is considered world class.
Oh and "Farrel's right to left passing g is better than Ford's" - says far more about the different standard these players are held to than their actual ability.

 

[MarkyH]

DoH, wrong replay
DoH !

TBF that was a better game that the one that actually did happen at the weekend Did the sunshine not give it away

 

[MikeTheNative]

I was a bit disappointed with England, they can do a lot better than they showed on Saturday. Underhill played well considering his age but I don't think a flanker pairing of him and Robshaw works, neither offer enough threat with the ball in hand.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Once again I think you guys are being harsh on your own team.
The Argies are no slouches and they \are a difficult team to break down.
More importantly you need to remember that this was Englands first hit out in many months.
Rust always creeps in and no team is immune to it.
This was a strong performance for a rusty combination.
They will get better each week now until they have a few games under their belt.
England cranked up the points machine, go with the positives.
Is it Aussie next week?
They will be your only potential banana skin.
I can't see the Japies troubling the Poms especially at Twickenham.
The poor old Japies looked woeful against Ireland.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You'd lose one of lawes/Itoje, both of whom are far better than Hughes, And you'd hamper the lineout too.

Agreed in terms of all round skill sets, but this is all about team balance. Although Lawes has improved, our front five don't punch their weight ball in hand and we have no big carriers in the backs either. While the game has changed it still remains a hell of a lot easier to play off the front foot. If you've only got Billy he can be marked. Billy plus AN Other up front is posing more problems and taking some of the heat off Billy. Billy plus AN Other plus a Teo or Manu in the backs is all of a sudden offering a whole range of options. Carrying's not the be all and end all, but without more gain line breakers we are never going to get where we want to be. Those couple of extra yards against a retreating defence make all the difference for Ford and the backs to do their stuff.

A heavy duty carrier would be a reasonable trade off for a 3rd line out expert. Both Hughes & Underhill can jump a little bit, but how often do we use a third jumper compared to the number of times the ball is carried in to contact? And those 2 might complement each other quite nicely; Underhill's happiest doing the hitting and dirty work while Hughes much prefers the ball in hand.

Not saying Hughes at 6 is the answer, but it must be a temptation.

 

[Nubiwan]

you're right that him being blocked prevented him having a fair challenge

the line of thinking being distributed is that it wasn't a genuine contest since brown beat him to the ball and was higher so it's brown ball

the fact that he was then pulled down and landed on his head means that a red would have been appropiate

what i see is a dude going for the ball and getting arm instead of ball and the other guy landing in a bad spot

for me cards should be used to correct and prevent behavior... what behavior are we preventing by red carding this player, i don't think there is one

Fair contest. Never a yellow. Too bad for Brown. Play on. Ref got it wrong, but who am I to criticize guys who get paid to do it?

 

[Nubiwan]

Once again I think you guys are being harsh on your own team.
The Argies are no slouches and they \are a difficult team to break down.
More importantly you need to remember that this was Englands first hit out in many months.
Rust always creeps in and no team is immune to it.
This was a strong performance for a rusty combination.
They will get better each week now until they have a few games under their belt.
England cranked up the points machine, go with the positives.
Is it Aussie next week?
They will be your only potential banana skin.
I can't see the Japies troubling the Poms especially at Twickenham.
The poor old Japies looked woeful against Ireland.

It's a big advantage for Australia coming off the rugby championship series, whether you think they played well or not in those matches. Their preparation has included a 3 match series with the ABs. If that don't sharpen your senses and reaction time, then nothing will. Honestly fancy Oz to beat England, and the resultant media rebound to set England's World Cup hopes back 5 years. English players been scratching their arses for 6 months, so be harsh to expect them to put out a polished game against anyone, in fairness.

 

[Nubiwan]

Cheika at the mind games already.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/11/wales-australia-alun-wyn-jones

Does the press in England really expect an easy win over the Oz? At your peril if you take this game easy.

Cheika clearly wants the underdog mantra for his side? Who wouldn't? No lose situation.

His side is clearly favourite on recent results. 2016 a distant memory. That's how I'd position it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

English players been scratching their arses for 6 months, so be harsh to expect them to put out a polished game against anyone, in fairness.

So how do you explain Ireland?

The majority of that English team have played together for a while, so should have been able to hit the ground running. And looking back, even though we won the 6N, some of our performances in that were pretty underwhelming too. Itoje and Faz will make a difference, but I can see Aus fancying it next week.

FWIW Guscott seems to be of a similar opinion.

"For an England side who have aspirations of being the world's number one side and of winning the World Cup, that's not how they should be performing now. I do not think it was down to a lack of game time, understanding or practice either".

 

[Nubiwan]

So how do you explain Ireland?

The majority of that English team have played together for a while, so should have been able to hit the ground running. And looking back, even though we won the 6N, some of our performances in that were pretty underwhelming too. Itoje and Faz will make a difference, but I can see Aus fancying it next week.

FWIW Guscott seems to be of a similar opinion.

"For an England side who have aspirations of being the world's number one side and of winning the World Cup, that's not how they should be performing now. I do not think it was down to a lack of game time, understanding or practice either".

If you will forgive me, but I am of the opinion that it means more for an Irishman to put on a green (grey) jersey, than their English counterparts doing so for the white. That quite often, the latter take to the field rather expecting a result, than have to put in 80 minutes of effort. A high level and very basic assessment of the two different approaches, but I think it holds some weight.

Still, my point was rather oz will be better prepared given recent matches, not a commentary on England's performance. I reckoned the Pumas would always be a tricky hurdle depending on who showed up.

When's the last time England all played together? Wasn't apparent yesterday at all.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The Argies are no slouches and they \are a difficult team to break down.

I don't buy that,
They used to be but not anymore. They're the tri-nations Scotland, maybe once or twice an international period they'll get a decent result, maybe come close to a big scalp, but ultimately will fall short of expectations every time.

A few years ago a game against Argentina was a big deal and you never knew what the result was going to be, but now I expect us to win every time. I said before the summer I expected our C side to clean sweep the series in Argentina and people said I was mad, yet we still did.

 

[Hound]

You're just saying that because you're trying to stop Dan Cole being trebucheted into the sun.

Espn stats are notoriously crappy anyway, the England Facebook page said Hughes made 7 tackles, not 9, earlier.

That they are... but they seem pretty right on this one. In the final 9 minutes it seemed he was in every other tackle and never had a chance to show how he could run the ball.

 

[Nubiwan]

I don't buy that,
They used to be but not anymore. They're the tri-nations Scotland, maybe once or twice an international period they'll get a decent result, maybe come close to a big scalp, but ultimately will fall short of expectations every time.

A few years ago a game against Argentina was a big deal and you never knew what the result was going to be, but now I expect us to win every time. I said before the summer I expected our C side to clean sweep the series in Argentina and people said I was mad, yet we still did.

21-8 must've been a bit of a let down then. My opinion is it could have been 30, 40 or 50 given the right attitude. England, quite often, don't have it in such games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

21-8 must've been a bit of a let down then. My opinion is it could have been 30, 40 or 50 given the right attitude. England, quite often, don't have it in such games.

True, it wasn't a good performance from England. The result was never really in doubt, though.
Winning when you're playing like ass is better than losing