[November Tests 2016 EOYT] France vs. New Zealand (26/11/2016)

[Bada-Bing!]

Todd at openside and Ardie at blindside, with Squire coming off the bench is more than sufficient to compete with France.

I think you're missing my point about Kaino's fitness. Not rushing him back is important to his longevity. Of course he's still our best man, that's why I'd like to preserve him.

Doubt Hansen will choose Ardie to start at 6. Hansen has already said he's still too light in terms of weight for 7 start and last the full 80 let alone at 6. Hence why they are choosing to nature him off the bench until a year or two when he's around 106kgs (currently 102kgs from what I read). We never really saw Cane and McCaw start at 6 and 7 for ABs, so can't see Hansen starting twin opensides v France. If no Kaino, although I'd still be surprised if he doesn't start, then I think Luatua at 6 as TobyBeastTeague has suggested, although he was cramping by the 60 mark v Italy.

 

[Makos]

Doubt Hansen will choose Ardie to start at 6. Hansen has already said he's still too light in terms of weight for 7 start and last the full 80 let alone at 6. Hence why they are choosing to nature him off the bench until a year or two when he's around 106kgs (currently 102kgs from what I read). We never really saw Cane and McCaw start at 6 and 7 for ABs, so can't see Hansen starting twin opensides v France. If no Kaino, although I'd still be surprised if he doesn't start, then I think Luatua at 6 as TobyBeastTeague has suggested, although he was cramping by the 60 mark v Italy.

Good points, in that case, just start Squire at blindside. Ardie can come on for Todd later in the match or start ahead of him. I really want us to avoid risking Kaino. There's just absolutely no point to it, when Luatua, Squire and Todd are fit.

 

[Larksea]

The "Lets mix things up and use some fresh legs" side

1, Crockett
2, Coltman
3, Faumuina
4, S Barrett
5, Retalick
6, Luatua
7, Todd
8, Read (no cane or Ben Smith so he's kinda needed)
9, Perenara (VC)
10, Sopoaga
11, Naholo
12, ALB
13, Seta
14, Dagg
15, McKenzie

Taylor, Moody, Ofa, Tuipulotu, Savea, TKB, Barrett, Ioane

I'd be comfortable with this side beating France, Sopoaga is good enough that because he is fresh we wont lose much. The injection of some fresh players will make up for some of the lost experience.
Coles - currently below par for him, big workload this season.
Whitelock - massive workload last weekend.
Squire - big workload recently.
Barrett - he is below his peak from TRC after a big workload.
Smith - needs a solid off season to get his best back. This last test wont matter or help him much.
We dont need to rush Kaino & Crotty back, both ended up injured after big workloads this season.

 

[The Jones Boy]

No Cruden on the bench?
Surprise, surprise, you've got that unimpressive skinny young fella at fullback again...
You don't think Ardie Savea earned a start?
Who is Seta?
However, I'm all for trying something new, get the young fullas out there and get them some experience.

 

[eidde]

Who is Seta?

Seta Tamanivalu if that was an actual question.

 

[Shaggy]

The "Lets mix things up and use some fresh legs" side

1, Crockett
2, Coltman
3, Faumuina
4, S Barrett
5, Retalick
6, Luatua
7, Todd
8, Read (no cane or Ben Smith so he's kinda needed)
9, Perenara (VC)
10, Sopoaga
11, Naholo
12, ALB
13, Seta
14, Dagg
15, McKenzie

Taylor, Moody, Ofa, Tuipulotu, Savea, TKB, Barrett, Ioane

I'd be comfortable with this side beating France, Sopoaga is good enough that because he is fresh we wont lose much. The injection of some fresh players will make up for some of the lost experience.
Coles - currently below par for him, big workload this season.
Whitelock - massive workload last weekend.
Squire - big workload recently.
Barrett - he is below his peak from TRC after a big workload.
Smith - needs a solid off season to get his best back. This last test wont matter or help him much.
We dont need to rush Kaino & Crotty back, both ended up injured after big workloads this season.

They may give Dixon a run at six too, if Kaino isn't available, and to give Squire a rest, but I get the feeling that although Squire had a very good work rate on defense in the last test, they want to see him get more opportunity with the ball in hand, so they may give him another shot

 

[Makos]

We should give Crudes a start no? I think he deserves one with Sopoaga on the bench.

I like Dixon, but he suffers from nearly man syndrome. He's a versatile talent though and should definitely be given some more shots.

 

[saucisse]

Big hiding in store for les bleus. They have gone backwards under Noves. In his first year in charge the last selector had notched convincing win over Aus and placed 4th in 6N. This llot couldn't put away Aussie B side. Noves has done worse so far. He's flogging a dead horse IMO.

3 points about Noves since his appointment:

1. He hasn't assembled a world-class staff.
Many can't figure out how Gerald Bastide an U20 union coach with no previous exposure to pro rugby is in the staff. Bastide would not currently get a job in Top 14.

2. Team has showed little defensive shape.
This is France's weak point IMO. They are holes everywhere since last 6N. This is what you get for hiring a coaching debutante.

3. No leaders.
Made same point last season. Can't see how this has in any way changed. Guirado is a fine hooker but he's on his own as a captain. And a captain is only as good as his deputies. There's no one else around willing to stick their neck out.

For me this last point is the most damning. Defensive lapses can be fixed. But it's hard to conjure up leaders out of thin air when nobody's willing to step up. I would take an average team with leaders over anything else.

The French internationals are primed for league games, not test games. They can no longer bridge the gap given the demands of the test game. Their fitness regimen is geared towards playing club rugby.

I disagree
We can not compare the first year of PSA with that of Noves
PSA has recovered a team finalist of the World Cup, 2nd of the tournament of the 6 nations (with a grand slam in 2010)
Noves recovered the team that suffered the greatest humiliation in the history of the final stages of the World Cup, which never did better than 4th in the 6N (and one last place in 2014)
Incomparable.
Of course the results are not here yet, but, personally, I have never felt so much pleasure to see our team playing since 5 years, we won 27-0 against the semi finalist of World Cup, we mark more of 50 points (the first time since 2009) against Samoa (a small team, certainly but all the same, under PSA we struggled against Romania and Canada...)
We lost of 2 points against the finalists of world cup...
Personaly I'm optimistic for future, maybe I'm wrong, but Noves gave us so much pleasure in Toulouse that I trust him to do the same with the french team.
I don't say we will defeat the blacks, of course, but I think (I hope) that we will conserve our dignity this time !

 

[JJFlash]

I disagree
We can not compare the first year of PSA with that of Noves
PSA has recovered a team finalist of the World Cup, 2nd of the tournament of the 6 nations (with a grand slam in 2010)
Noves recovered the team that suffered the greatest humiliation in the history of the final stages of the World Cup, which never did better than 4th in the 6N (and one last place in 2014)
Incomparable.
Of course the results are not here yet, but, personally, I have never felt so much pleasure to see our team playing since 5 years, we won 27-0 against the semi finalist of World Cup, we mark more of 50 points (the first time since 2009) against Samoa (a small team, certainly but all the same, under PSA we struggled against Romania and Canada...)
We lost of 2 points against the finalists of world cup...
Personaly I'm optimistic for future, maybe I'm wrong, but Noves gave us so much pleasure in Toulouse that I trust him to do the same with the french team.
I don't say we will defeat the blacks, of course, but I think (I hope) that we will conserve our dignity this time !

Some good points.
We shouldn't compare Novès with PSA. The circumstances are different - as Saucisse has said.
I believe that cautious optimism is reasonable at this stage of Novès' tenure with les Bleus, and although it's extremely unlikely that they'll bother the All Blacks, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play in the 6 Nations.

 

[Larksea]

my thinking behind no Cruden is that Sopoaga deseves a start and I think barrett would be the best insurance on the bench for later on if needed.
I like Dixon but its fair to say that he hasn't taken his chances this year. He had an amazing 2015 but this year has not been as good and on straight up form I would put him below Squire, Ioane, Shields and Luatua. I predict he wont be an AB in 2017.

I put forward a motion that we all refer to Seta Tamanivalu as just Seta from now on. Dont make me have to figure out how to spell his last name every damn time lol

 

[nzlizard]

my thinking behind no Cruden is that Sopoaga deseves a start and I think barrett would be the best insurance on the bench for later on if needed.
I like Dixon but its fair to say that he hasn't taken his chances this year. He had an amazing 2015 but this year has not been as good and on straight up form I would put him below Squire, Ioane, Shields and Luatua. I predict he wont be an AB in 2017.

I am thinking Cruden because I still think he is the best organizer of the AB's backline, Barrett is the better player but Cruden is the man i want there when it is tough or Barrett needs a rest.

 

[Larksea]

The French should see an opening here.

The last test of the season is traditionally the worst for the All Blacks. They always struggle with it and it has to be said they are in worse shape right now than they have been in previous years. Many of our key players are either injured or suffering a dip in form from at the end of the long season. And last weekend they had to put in a 200 tackle effort to hold out Ireland. Our lineup has been unsettled due to injuries and now suspensions.

 

[Larksea]

AB side has been named, very little in terms of giving players chances its basically the most experienced guys and Crotty is back.
Good to finally see Perenara start.

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Waisake Naholo, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ryan Crotty, Julian Savea, Beauden Barrett, TJ Perenara, Kieran Read (captain), Matt Todd, Jerome Kaino, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.
Reserves: Codie Taylor, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Aaron Smith, Aaron Cruden, Rieko Ioane.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Hansen wants the win.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Bleargh what a boring way to finish the year.

To be fair, the only players I really see as undeserving are Savea and Naholo. Savea has been very average and Naholo still looks to not be at 100%.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I hope players like Sopoaga don't get disheartened and run off to France for a pay cheque.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

To be fair Hansen has introduced a lot of new players on this tour already; what is it like 11? ALB has been a revelation this year and only 21, Scotty Barrett is now another option at lock, plus Rieko getting his 2nd AB cap at 19. Not surprised Crotty and Kaino returning after injury. Perenara's form has justified starting ahead of Smith.

 

[Shaggy]

I hope players like Sopoaga don't get disheartened and run off to France for a pay cheque.

Well, he's only one injury away from a place in a match day 23, and is likely to be included in a RWC squad, provided he can keep ahead of the other 10s comming up through the ranks, so hopefully he'll stay.

I doubt he'll take the cash, just because he didn't get too many opportunities this tour

 

[Larksea]

with 3 world class first fives plus McKenzie, West and mo'unga there is no way we are going to keep all of them in NZ.

I can see Cruden going before the next WC and Sopoaga is a flight risk as well.

I actually think the selectors are hesitant to give players like Sopoaga a test start in europe because if they have a big game big offers from European clubs start to roll in. It seems to matter, players can play well in super rugby or tri nations but the big offers come when they stand out in a test match in europe. The local fans & press start to identify with the player and the managers open their pocketbooks. If sopoaga started against France and scored 15+points kicking his goals and setting up a try or two all of a sudden he's a million dollar player. He's absolutely capable if that.

 

[Makos]

with 3 world class first fives plus McKenzie, West and mo'unga there is no way we are going to keep all of them in NZ.

I can see Cruden going before the next WC and Sopoaga is a flight risk as well.

I actually think the selectors are hesitant to give players like Sopoaga a test start in europe because if they have a big game big offers from European clubs start to roll in. It seems to matter, players can play well in super rugby or tri nations but the big offers come when they stand out in a test match in europe. The local fans & press start to identify with the player and the managers open their pocketbooks. If sopoaga started against France and scored 15+points kicking his goals and setting up a try or two all of a sudden he's a million dollar player. He's absolutely capable if that.

If we lose Cruden and Sopoaga and Barrett picks up an injury we might have a first 5 'crisis' like we did between 2007-2010 when Carter and Evans were injured and Evans went overseas along with MaCalister and we were left with Beaver. West and Mo'unga are decent, but I can see Ireland and England having their way with us without at least Barrett, Cruden and Sopoaga playing.

I think it's absolutely crucial to our 2019 RWC hopes we hang on to Cruden. I'm sure we're working very hard with him to come up with a deal and a solution but I feel like Crudes has been undervalued in a lot of ways. Barretts form has been impossible to pass up though and his WR Player of the year award proved that.

Sopoaga is in a kind of Colin Slade position. Cruden and Barrett are likely to pick up injuries between now and 2019, so I'm sure he will have more chances to prove that he can do it at test match level, he already showed that last year in South Africa. Slade had versatility on his side though, which made him more of a viable pick and got him more game time.

About the team vs France.

I'm a bit disappointed we aren't trying a different approach, but I can also understand it. It's one of the last times the guys will be together before the Lions tour, so I completely understand Hansen keeping continuity. Perhaps if we didn't have the Lions on the horizon then we'd see a lot of guys getting more opportunities. I think there's enough fresh faces in there getting some good game time and bench spots that he's balanced it out nicely as @The_Blindside pointed out.

Really stoked to see Ioane on the bench. McKenzie has just got to put his head down for another year.. and boy I hope he beefs up a little, a puff of wind could blow him off the park!

TJ deservedly getting a start. Nothing against Aaron, but Steve should've made him earn his spot back. I understand his approach, but it was seriously a middle finger in TJ's face after the best performances I've seen at 9 this year.