[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (26/11/2016)

[Vieux Talonneur]

Playing against Quins right now.

 

[BPM]

Start Morgan and put Clifford on the bench.
Like Clifford a lot but we need someone who can carry in traffic and muscle up, Clifford's carrying is at its best when the game opens up a bit.


Wasps press release for their team announcement said Hughes is put with a toe injury - usually the type of ****ly injury to keep you out for a couple of weeks because it's hard to rest/needs to be 100% before coming back.

Of all the available options, I definitely want to see Morgan. He's been playing well enough for Gloucester and he's a proven test player funnily enough, his record is also more or less identical to Billy's (31 caps and 5 tries compared to Billy's 32 caps and 5 tries). The fact that he's been in the camp recently and knows the systems etc. makes him a safe choice IMO.

I think my opinions on Hughes are fairly well covered. I suspect Eddie prefers him over Morgan (I don't) but if he's anything short of 100%, he simply can't play. His work rate isn't high enough when he is fully fit, so if he's not, I'd be concerned. Especially if it's Harrison covering from the bench again

If Hughes isn't fit, I'm hoping to see Beaumont over Harrison, but Eddie seems to like the 'Streetfighter'.

 

[NickBD]

33 man squad for next week. No Ben Morgan but Beaumont, Hughes and Clifford in.

Forwards (19)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints),Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).


Backs (14)
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

However much I rate Robshaw, the fact he doesn't carry, really messes with the back row balance.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

However much I rate Robshaw, the fact he doesn't carry, really messes with the back row balance.

He does have very good hands though which at times are a threat in themselves. I'd be tempted to put Clifford in at 7 to get a carrying flanker. Clifford is weak doing the right work though so you'd then have to put Beaumont at 8 as Hughes is atrocious there. Beaumont is a good carrier, but not as good in the right as Vunipola or Hughes. I'd go for:

6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. Hughes

Or if Hughes isn't 100%

6. Robshaw
7. Clifford
8. Beaumont

 

[Five Meters Out]

I feel sorry for the English boy Red Carded. He sprinted hard after the ball just as he is meant too but arrived late. It is just not instinctual to move out of the way and let the opposition player plan. The first instinct is to tackle. You could see him begin to do that and then go "S..., I'm not allowed to that." Stopped himself but by then it was too late.
I reckon intent needs to be taken into account. Officials could have looked at the screen and seen he was just poor in execution. Give him a 'Yellow' and then let the citing officer cite him after the game.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I feel sorry for the English boy Red Carded. He sprinted hard after the ball just as he is meant too but arrived late. It is just not instinctual to move out of the way and let the opposition player plan. The first instinct is to tackle. You could see him begin to do that and then go "S..., I'm not allowed to that." Stopped himself but by then it was too late.
I reckon intent needs to be taken into account. Officials could have looked at the screen and seen he was just poor in execution. Give him a 'Yellow' and then let the citing officer cite him after the game.

Nah, its an aspect of the game that's way too dangerous to accept clumsiness.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

How many weeks do you guys recon Pieretto will get? Looks very, very bad.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Nah, its an aspect of the game that's way too dangerous to accept clumsiness.

Not saying this should happen, but do you think there will be a point where we just say that they shouldn't be allowed to jump when competing for the ball? Would decrease the risk of injury much more than just punishing the player that gets it wrong. There's also no reason you can't still have a good contest for the ball without jumping, as long as both players have to abide by it.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

How many weeks do you guys recon Pieretto will get? Looks very, very bad.

Kinda hoping not too long. Was painful to watch but I don't think it was intentional and he shook Marler's hand after. A ban should we given for recklessness but I hope it's nothing too massive.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Kinda hoping not too long. Was painful to watch but I don't think it was intentional and he shook Marler's hand after. A ban should we given for recklessness but I hope it's nothing too massive.

Have you seen the replay from Pieretto's front? Quite clear that he's looking down at where his feet are going. Also clear that he brings his foot down harder and places the boot.

It's not way accidental in my opinion and should be punished accordingly.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah - looked completely accidental from the first two angles shown, and precisely the opposite from the third.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm with Orange. Didn't look accidental to me.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Not saying this should happen, but do you think there will be a point where we just say that they shouldn't be allowed to jump when competing for the ball? Would decrease the risk of injury much more than just punishing the player that gets it wrong. There's also no reason you can't still have a good contest for the ball without jumping, as long as both players have to abide by it.

I was wondering that myself. However, don't think it will ever happen. What might well happen is along the lines of what i suggested in my post. He receives a yellow card at the time, but goes on report and the Judiciary can put him out for 6 weeks or whatever. That way the match is not potentially ruined as a spectacle and the deterrent is strongly enforced.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I feel sorry for the English boy Red Carded. He sprinted hard after the ball just as he is meant too but arrived late. It is just not instinctual to move out of the way and let the opposition player plan. The first instinct is to tackle. You could see him begin to do that and then go "S..., I'm not allowed to that." Stopped himself but by then it was too late.
I reckon intent needs to be taken into account. Officials could have looked at the screen and seen he was just poor in execution. Give him a 'Yellow' and then let the citing officer cite him after the game.

I disagree with this approach. When a player who escaped punishment at the time is cited and found guilty, it is effectively saying that the team of officials missed the offence at the time or applied the wrong sanction - a guilty verdict in this scenario means that the player should have been sent off at the time. What you are advocating is effectively giving the referee a remit to bottle decisions and ignore the law book. Personally I applaud him for having the courage of his convictions and applying what according to my understanding was the correct sanction.

The only way I could agree with you is if we were regularly seeing red cards overturned by the citing authorities, which we're not and I don't believe we will in this instance.

- - - Updated - - -

How many weeks do you guys recon Pieretto will get? Looks very, very bad.

My guess would be six weeks on the basis that it's mid range - there was intent, which must bump it up from a Launchbury type low end incident but they will allow themselves to be swayed by the fact that it didn't cause any injury. Eight weeks is the recommended sanction, no doubt this will be reduced on the basis that he sends his mother flowers and once stroked a dog!

 

[Five Meters Out]

I disagree with this approach. When a player who escaped punishment at the time is cited and found guilty, it is effectively saying that the team of officials missed the offence at the time or applied the wrong sanction - a guilty verdict in this scenario means that the player should have been sent off at the time. What you are advocating is effectively giving the referee a remit to bottle decisions and ignore the law book. Personally I applaud him for having the courage of his convictions and applying what according to my understanding was the correct sanction.

The only way I could agree with you is if we were regularly seeing red cards overturned by the citing authorities, which we're not and I don't believe we will in this instance.

- - - Updated - - -

!

I was looking at it from a point of view that a Red card after 10 minutes, for an offence that was not dirty play, has the potential to decide who wins the game. We don't turn up to games to applaud the Ref for having the courage of his convictions.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I don't turn up to watch the referee make up the laws as he goes along. It was a red card offence - award a red card. Anything else is a really dangerous route to go down.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anyone else seen the brilliant footage of May scrummaging on the flank.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Love it,
Even after mako tries to correct him, mid engage, he goes right back to putting his head up his arse :lol:

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

When did that happen? Anyone got video?