New Zealand vs England 2nd Test (13/07/24)

[West Country Wail]

If England won last week, it would have been great but certainly one with a * next to it to note that is was NZ's first game after a long break, new coaching set-up etc etc.

This weekend however, presents a real chance at making a mark in English Rugby history. To do it with what looks like a child at loose head, and a winger who was until very recently on loan to Taunton ***ans would be the only * required in that book.

New Zealand will obviously improve, and will definitely be seeking their 2nd half tactics over the hail-Mary's ripe for a Slade pickin', but it has to be said England can improve too. If only the scrum were more solid...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think at this level it's pretty tough to try and play expansively without a quick clearance, even if you get the go firward. We are better off playing territory, up and unders, and pick and going through the middle. Relying on mails from penalties or penalty kicks, turnover ball, and kick returns.

And I absolutely disagree that Tjp isn't miles faster. Razor acknowledged we lost a lot of momentum when TJ went off. It surprises me there are still a select few people who fail to see that TJs clearance is sharp (from ruck available to leaving his hand - I'm not talking here about eg actual speed of his pass). most people have caught up with the times, although it's taken a while. TJ is the fastest in the country. He was faster than weber for the year before he did his Achilles too. The English fans on here sure noticed how slow christie was in comparison when he came on in the last game we played over there.

in my experience its the other way around, a few die hards claiming hes a stand out and the majority thinking his main asset is experience, if Roigard was fit he wouldnt even be in the squad as no point having TJP on the bench

we all live in our own echo chambers

i think the main focus is we cant expect to go wide from first, second or even third, we need to get the English snipers stuck in the bottom of a ruck or on the short side and then beat their second choice (slower) snipers to go wide, will take more structure than we have played for years but we saw the start of it last week

 

[Kiwiwomble]

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Furbank out crocked, Steward in.

 

[miccloarch]

Finau at 6 again is no surprise based on what Razor keeps saying he wants from his loosies but that game was crying out for an Akira/Hoskins type of carrier. Finau looked almost out of his depth in his first high pressure test match and clearly they don't think Sititi is ready for this level of opponent which again raises the question why Hoskins was left out.

Blackadder, Razor's obvious favourite, must be banged up bad for him to miss out on the 23 again.

Ardie also seems like he's half on holiday in Japan still.

 

[miccloarch]

i think the main focus is we cant expect to go wide from first, second or even third, we need to get the English snipers stuck in the bottom of a ruck or on the short side and then beat their second choice (slower) snipers to go wide, will take more structure than we have played for years but we saw the start of it last week

Tbf Schmidt and Ryan brought some structure that dealt with the Bok rush defence reasonably well. Razor's clearly built on that but his 2nd half tactics were a tacit admission that we're probably still a ways away from being on that level where we can play it wide off the cuff, at will, against anyone, like the old days.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

It's not that slow christie helped the blues win the super rugby ***le which you don't win if your halfback isn't up to scratch. The all blacks were spoiled with Aaron smith for so many years he had by far and away the best clearance in nz rugby by a long way. TJ isn't even close to smith.

It's not all about a quick clearance either at the international level. TJ make have a great pass but he is not perfect. You saw in super rugby how frustrated he was getting with the refs when things didn't go his way and he started to become a liability for the hurricanes at times instead of a leader. I also think Christie takes the line on a lot more than TJ which is also very important for a halfback to do at the international level. TJ is noticeably a lot more gun shy in this area after all the injuries he has had so that could be another reason why his clearance speed has picked up. TJ was also guilty of some of the aimless kicking the All Blacks did in the first test as well.

Glad to see Razor has kept basically the same team except for the forced change because of TJ's injury. The All Blacks will be wanting a better performance compared to last week and with another week together there should be improvements from last week especially in the lineout. I think it will be very tough for england to win at eden park especially now that the all blacks would have gotten rid of the rust in the first test and have spent another entire week together. It should still be a good game though as england showed in the first test they came to nz to play.

Also glad we stocked with basically the same team, for consistency sake and to give them a chance to adapt.

All I was saying regarding TJ and Christie is that I don't think at this level you can play expansively without a quick clearance, that we should use a different style. The chiefs managed to play expansively off slow ball at times but I'm not sure they could at this level. Also, to temper what I was saying a bit, I did think Christie's clearance looked improved at the end of the blues season. And I'm always a big appreciator of improvement so I'm hoping I have to eat my words after this game.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

in my experience its the other way around, a few die hards claiming hes a stand out and the majority thinking his main asset is experience, if Roigard was fit he wouldnt even be in the squad as no point having TJP on the bench

we all live in our own echo chambers

i think the main focus is we cant expect to go wide from first, second or even third, we need to get the English snipers stuck in the bottom of a ruck or on the short side and then beat their second choice (slower) snipers to go wide, will take more structure than we have played for years but we saw the start of it last week

As a halfback I watch the halfbacks very closely. When foster told TJ he had to get quicker at his clearance, that's exactly what happened.

I'm fascinated to see how we play. Hoping you are right re the tactics

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Furbank out crocked, Steward in.

That's a big blow,
I get why Steward comes in but would've been cool to see Carpenter given a shot

 

[West Country Wail]

I wonder if this late change will affect the NZ game plan...

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Ahh furbank was very good last week, but given we'd probably wanted to kick a lot steward is a good replacement

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Loss of pace, loss of vision, loss of defence. Real shame, probably no chance of winning now.

 

[Rinkadink]

Furbank out crocked, Steward in.

That's not so good. Hope it's nothing too serious.

Mystified how Spencer has retained his place after his last performance and when Randall has also recently shown what he can do.

Other than that I think the side rightfully remains unchanged for now. Bigger changes can come after these tests if England fail to improve and get a win.

 

[Which Tyler]

I just don't get it with Spencer (a bit like Alex Goode, I guess) so good at club level, so **** at international.
At least with Goode you knew it was the weakness he could get away with at club, being exposed internationally, but Spencer seems to play completely differently. I can only think it's paralysis by over-thinking / over-worrying.
Either way, this should be his last cap.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

That's not so good. Hope it's nothing too serious.

Mystified how Spencer has retained his place after his last performance and when Randall has also recently shown what he can do.

Other than that I think the side rightfully remains unchanged for now. Bigger changes can come after these tests if England fail to improve and get a win.

I don't think we need a big or then to think about changes. The England side is evolving and for once we are seeing some continuity in selection and a gameplan starting to develop. As long as we see another performance and a close game I'll be happy.

 

[Reiser99]

I just don't get it with Spencer (a bit like Alex Goode, I guess) so good at club level, so **** at international.
At least with Goode you knew it was the weakness he could get away with at club, being exposed internationally, but Spencer seems to play completely differently. I can only think it's paralysis by over-thinking / over-worrying.
Either way, this should be his last cap.

I feel like it's a Borthwick compromise. Ok, you guys can go and attack for the start of the fame, but at the end we go back to being conservative so we're not too risky.

 

[BPM]

Loss of pace, loss of vision, loss of defence. Real shame, probably no chance of winning now.

Odd take. Furbank has become an important player, but not to the extent that I think his availability is the difference between winning and losing.

Steward will surely be coming in with a point to prove which should be a good thing.

I just hope that the plan is to have Steward adapt to our new style rather than reverting to the old one to suit him.

I don't love this idea, but if it really isn't working, we could bring on Fin Smith and move Marcus to 15.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Steward can attack, not like he just sits around twiddling his thumbs waiting for the next kick tennis battle - give him a chance in the improved gameplan before writing him off entirely, we've seen him do some great stuff for club and country before

I feel like it's a Borthwick compromise. Ok, you guys can go and attack for the start of the fame, but at the end we go back to being conservative so we're not too risky.

That's my thinking too - there was a clear gameplan change when the subs came on, and considering how drastic it was it has to have come from the coaches otherwise the players would get the shepherds crook

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Steward drinking from a poisoned chalice now.
Anything but a win regardless how close the loss and everyone will be saying we would've won with Furbank despite it also being extremely unlikely

 

[BPM]

If by 'everyone' you mean the media and casual fans, maybe. I'd like to think those who watch (and understand) the game will be able to see the result for what it is whether that's a win or a loss.

Winning or losing is never solely about one player.