New Zealand vs England 2nd Test (13/07/24)

[Bada-Bing!]

Good to see no mass changes. This weekend is turning out to be a massive one for England. Ending 58 years without a major trophy and ABs 30 years unbeaten at Eden Park. It's written in the stars.

 

[Reiser99]

Hopefully some continuity will do the team good. Still worried about the front row, but that's a general long term issue really. Subs are the other issue because I thought last week they really disrupted England's fluency.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Im most interested in whether we try and play expansive rugby even with a slow clearance or if we just play conservatively.

 

[BPM]

Hopefully some continuity will do the team good. Still worried about the front row, but that's a general long term issue really. Subs are the other issue because I thought last week they really disrupted England's fluency.

Agreed on the subs.

Spencer was dreadful and is lucky to retain his place in the 23. With no 3rd test to think about, I'd keep Mitchell on as long as possible.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Im most interested in whether we try and play expansive rugby even with a slow clearance or if we just play conservatively.

I think England rush defence is more of a hurdle to playing wide than christie (TJP not miles faster).....think we're going to need to really work to be able to go wide but the tries last weekend show where we can strike.....IF we can earn it but tying up England's snipers

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Only player in our team now who I see as irreplaceable is Martin. I feel like every other position could be covered quite well. He brings a proper TH lock that we just don't have elsewhere.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I think England rush defence is more of a hurdle to playing wide than christie (TJP not miles faster).....think we're going to need to really work to be able to go wide but the tries last weekend show where we can strike.....IF we can earn it but tying up England's snipers

I think at this level it's pretty tough to try and play expansively without a quick clearance, even if you get the go firward. We are better off playing territory, up and unders, and pick and going through the middle. Relying on mails from penalties or penalty kicks, turnover ball, and kick returns.

And I absolutely disagree that Tjp isn't miles faster. Razor acknowledged we lost a lot of momentum when TJ went off. It surprises me there are still a select few people who fail to see that TJs clearance is sharp (from ruck available to leaving his hand - I'm not talking here about eg actual speed of his pass). most people have caught up with the times, although it's taken a while. TJ is the fastest in the country. He was faster than weber for the year before he did his Achilles too. The English fans on here sure noticed how slow christie was in comparison when he came on in the last game we played over there.

 

[Reiser99]

Only player in our team now who I see as irreplaceable is Martin. I feel like every other position could be covered quite well. He brings a proper TH lock that we just don't have elsewhere.

I'd add Underhill and maybe Mitchell. Mitchell possibly if Borthwick picked the right SH's.

 

[Half Pint]

Good to see no mass changes. This weekend is turning out to be a massive one for England. Ending 58 years without a major trophy and ABs 30 years unbeaten at Eden Park. It's written in the stars.

That's some pretty strong Optimism you're drinking there, fella!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd add Underhill and maybe Mitchell. Mitchell possibly if Borthwick picked the right SH's.

For me you could have Randell and Quirke to come in for Mitchell and curry to replace underhill. Not necessarily a like for like but good enough to match the style.

Where as Martin just doesn't have a back up. Not yet and not with any international experience.

 

[Reiser99]

For me you could have Randell and Quirke to come in for Mitchell and curry to replace underhill. Not necessarily a like for like but good enough to match the style.

Where as Martin just doesn't have a back up. Not yet and not with any international experience.

See I don't see Curry as a like for like replacement for Underhill. Underhill was putting in huge tackles in the first half and after he came off NZ were getting over the gainline more. Curry is much more a typical 7 who jackals.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Only player in our team now who I see as irreplaceable is Martin. I feel like every other position could be covered quite well. He brings a proper TH lock that we just don't have elsewhere.

Agree with @Reiser99 on Underhill / Mitchell. We'd also be in trouble if Lawrence went down.

Steward could do a great job at 15, but if we want this faster style who would replace Furbank? Not Malins or Daly in my book.

I'd also put IFW in the irreplaceable bracket already. He brings something a bit different that scares defences in a way we haven't for years. Hesitate to mention him in the same breath as Robinson just yet but it's that kind of thing.

Definitely agree on Martin (still think we might see him at 6 sometimes). But totally agree that his physicality and power brings an added dimension.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That's some pretty strong Optimism you're drinking there, fella!

Well you got to be really, especially as an England fan. And every winning or losing run must come to an end eventually.

 

[esoj]

I think at this level it's pretty tough to try and play expansively without a quick clearance, even if you get the go firward. We are better off playing territory, up and unders, and pick and going through the middle. Relying on mails from penalties or penalty kicks, turnover ball, and kick returns.

And I absolutely disagree that Tjp isn't miles faster. Razor acknowledged we lost a lot of momentum when TJ went off. It surprises me there are still a select few people who fail to see that TJs clearance is sharp (from ruck available to leaving his hand - I'm not talking here about eg actual speed of his pass). most people have caught up with the times, although it's taken a while. TJ is the fastest in the country. He was faster than weber for the year before he did his Achilles too. The English fans on here sure noticed how slow christie was in comparison when he came on in the last game we played over there.

It's not that slow christie helped the blues win the super rugby ***le which you don't win if your halfback isn't up to scratch. The all blacks were spoiled with Aaron smith for so many years he had by far and away the best clearance in nz rugby by a long way. TJ isn't even close to smith.

It's not all about a quick clearance either at the international level. TJ make have a great pass but he is not perfect. You saw in super rugby how frustrated he was getting with the refs when things didn't go his way and he started to become a liability for the hurricanes at times instead of a leader. I also think Christie takes the line on a lot more than TJ which is also very important for a halfback to do at the international level. TJ is noticeably a lot more gun shy in this area after all the injuries he has had so that could be another reason why his clearance speed has picked up. TJ was also guilty of some of the aimless kicking the All Blacks did in the first test as well.

Glad to see Razor has kept basically the same team except for the forced change because of TJ's injury. The All Blacks will be wanting a better performance compared to last week and with another week together there should be improvements from last week especially in the lineout. I think it will be very tough for england to win at eden park especially now that the all blacks would have gotten rid of the rust in the first test and have spent another entire week together. It should still be a good game though as england showed in the first test they came to nz to play.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I have a feeling New Zealand will pull away quite quickly in the second half

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah we noticeably tired late on, it won't be any easier this week

 

[BPM]

I have a feeling New Zealand will pull away quite quickly in the second half

I'm not so sure. Regardless of the result, I think England probably came away the happier of the two teams.

I'd like to think the players are motivated by the possibility of an Eden Park win. It would definitely be a collector's item.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not so sure. Regardless of the result, I think England probably came away the happier of the two teams.

I'd like to think the players are motivated by the possibility of an Eden Park win. It would definitely be a collector's item.

Yeah but it was also New Zealand first game together since the final in October, and with a new head coach.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm not so sure. Regardless of the result, I think England probably came away the happier of the two teams.

I'd like to think the players are motivated by the possibility of an Eden Park win. It would definitely be a collector's item.

I think the ABs will be more motivated to defend their record.

Agree that we probably came away happier last week but deep down I suspect the players will be very frustrated that they didn't nail the result. Logic says that was our chance and the ABs are notoriously quick learners. Bench and discipline will have to be much better. Competitive for an hour but clear water for NZ in the ultimate result.

 

[higgik]

Only player in our team now who I see as irreplaceable is Martin. I feel like every other position could be covered quite well. He brings a proper TH lock that we just don't have elsewhere.

Gives balance to back 5 and helps Itoje enormously.
Just look at Itojes best work and Kruis was nearly always his partner in the row.