New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves

[Melhor Time]

The best team in the world are likely to be World Champions in 20 hours time. New Zealand as World Champions have a responsibility to the sport and to be a leader. The country has done a poor job of this since the sport went professional as it has brushed off requests from tis neighbours and is yet to ever play a single test in Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. Two of the three have been World Cup Quarter Finalists. The third defeated France several weeks ago in the World Cup. The NZRU and New Zealanders defend the lack of matches in the Islands stating the Islanders prefer to play in New Zealnd to take a share of the revenue. They also suggest other tier one unions don´t play against tier two sides in away matches.

Comparison regularly show that NZ is, indeed, in need of a reality check as examples show Argentina play in Chile and Uruguay regularly. The likes of Wales, Ireland and France have all played tests in the Pacific Islands. Ireland played in Japan six years ago. England, Scotland and France all have professional players from tier two and three countries while New Zealand do not and defend this as a means of maintaining All Black hegemony. The Super Rugby places are for New Zealanders. Wales, with fewer teams, made the Semi Finals. Wales has Scottish, Samoan, Fijian and Tongan World Cup players in its four professional teams. France, with 14 at the top level and 16 in the second division has an abundance of imports. Of the Pumas team that played vs New Zealand in the Quarter Final, eleven of its starting XV are from the Top 14. Two others from England´s Aviva Premiership.

Wales have come out and shown the world that they are interested in global rugby. The WRU has confirmed that in 2017 Wales are to play a three test tour in the South Pacific. The tests will not vs vs Australia or New Zealand. Rather, Wales, are to play each of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. Wales last visited the Pacific Islands in 1994. Hopefully this is a lesson for the NZRU and New Zealanders as Wales playing in the Islands clearly costs a lot more than NZ playing there. It also creates bonds which can be used in reverse with Wales able to host the same sides. It is a much better future prosect than having four NZ vs Australia matches per year with Japan or Hong Kong hosting one. The new venues like Napier, Whangarei and Palmerston North could all be used to host such matches with NZ vs Tonga in such a venue being great for all parties. Firstly, a visit to the Islands is a must. One short flight per year for one test should be the minimum. If NZ are to be World Cup champions the need is even greater.

 

[ranger]

If the concept of blind and uninformed ignorance could manifest itself into written word, this would be it. Pretty much the whole spiel there is twisted, but i would like to take single out one aspect where you are straight up wrong:

England, Scotland and France all have professional players from tier two and three countries while New Zealand do not and defend this as a means of maintaining All Black hegemony. The Super Rugby places are for New Zealanders.

.

Why don't you educate yourself, where does the captain of the Samoan team play his rugby? Fotuali'i, Mulipola, Perenise, Levi, Thompson, Leota, Pisi, Vainikolo, Piutau, Moa, Fisilau, Tuineau, Taumalolo, Ma'asi and Aulika are either still contracted to NZ teams or were during Samoa's word cup preperation, in which the NZRU was paying them a salary to train with another nations side.
You read that correctly by the way, the NZRU. The French top 14 is owned and operated by private entities, they are businesses! If Boudjellal wakes up and decides he wants to go throw money at some young fijian he saw once, then thats his prerogative, why should the French union be given a pat on the back for that?

In New Zealand, every team at every level is owned and run by the NZRU, every player in the country is contracted to them. The reason we don't see a flood of international players isn't because they want to protect the spots for possible All Blacks, but because they are a relatively poor union who typically can't afford to be paying the salaries of players that will be going off to play for another union. Even so, the NZRU has made island players largely exempt from the strict rules on foreigners due to the proximity and relationships between the pacific countries. Look at Fa'atau and Inoke Afeaki, two legends of the game the were trained in New Zealand, experienced long and lucrative careers funded by the NZRU only to play for their own countries year in and year out.

 

[ACT1NUP]

I like your ***le 'New Zealand as world champions'. Has a nice ring to it don't it.

 

[Melhor Time]

Ranger

I was talking about Super Rugby teams. There is not blind and uninformed ignorance. Nor is it twisted or straight up wrong. Samoa is a South Pacific country but the players play far away and New Zealand, if it wins the World Cup really needs to work on how it presents itself as a global leader. With its attitude and contribution towards ugby in the region needing attention. Case in point - look at Samoa´s World Cup players and see where they play.

How many are Super Rugby players. Consider the following:

Top 14

Ole Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
Tií Paulo (Clermont)
Census Johnson (Toulouse)
Daniel Leo (Bordeaux-Begles)
Joe Tekori (Castres)
Paul Williams (Stade Français)

Second Division
Manaia Salavea (Narbonne)

There was one Super Rugby player - Mahonri Schwalger and four other New Zealand based players. But they can be compared to Salavea not Avei as the NZ Cup lacks NZ´s top players. All Blacks don´t play.

Samoa´s win vs Australia and strong performances in the World Cup can be attrbuted to European clubs far more so than New Zealand´s system. If you disagree, which is totally fine, I´d be interested in reading. But your first post really is not a good one. Correct me, if I am wrong, but your post ignores the facts. In addtiion to France having more Samoan test players in its league. Wales has four teams, New Zealand five. Wales had players in the Scottish and Irish World Cup teams as well we all of Tonga, Fiji and Samoa. New Zealand had fewer, noticably fewer in fact. Some work is to be done.

You mentioned Kahn Fotuali'i who is no longer in New Zealand. He is contracted to the Ospreys in Wales as is George Stowers. England also has more World Cup Samoans at the elite level than New Zealand did. In fact, England has more than France. Without pro contracts teams are not able to compete.

Aviva Premiership
Anthony Perenise (Bath)
Sakarua Taulafo (London Wasps)
Maurie Fa´asavalu (Harlequins)
Taiasina Tuifu´a (Newcastle)
Junior Polu (Exeter)
Alesana Tuilaga (Leicester Tigers)
Tasesa Lavea (Sale Sharks)
Jonny Leota (Sale Sharks)
Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu (Gloucester)
George Pisi (London Irish)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (London Irish)

 

[Sam Owen]

Is this what every other world champion country has done?...

The All Blacks as of this time and date have not won it yet but if were talking about the NZRFU and the Island nations, lets not forget it was NZ who tried to help us (Manu Samoa) with getting access to most/all of our players to represent us in the world cup. However some other countries Union representatives voted against it.

NZ have always had Samoans in their All Blacks, more Samoans have represented them more than any other pacific nationality IMO. The current All Blacks have proud Samoans in their like Sonny Bill, Jerome Kaino, Maa Nonu, Toeava, John Afoa, Kevin Mealamu and theres been great Samoan All Blacks in the past as well.

The NH has been good to our athletes as well as youve mentioned. Rugbys been good to our players that have some real talent but theres also issues, mainly with the IRB. Maybe your arguement is more to do with them.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

You touched on a good point - the Pacific nations prefer to play matches in NZ. A huge number of pacific people still get to witness the game live, and the island nations take in all the profits because the matches are deemed home games for them.

What is the problem with this...?

 

[Shaggy]

Kahn Fotualii played for Tasman from 2004 -2009 and Hawkes Bay in 2010 and 2011. He played for the Crusaders from 2008 to 2011, so he's played for NZRU sides for eight seasons, before he's chosen to go and play for the Ospreys

It's hard to know how much more the NZRU can do to support him, and unlike his New Zealand counterparts, he can go and chase the big money in the UK and Europe, and not have to worry about not being eligible for his national side.

New Zealand does not mandate that the players in the Super teams must be eligible for the All Blacks (unlike the ARU insisting that they must be eligible for the Wallabies).

The NZRU (along with the ARU and SARU) already are going in to bat for the island nations, by trying to get the scheduling of games changed for the next RWC, so that the tier one nations share in the short turn arounds between matches, and to get the sponsorship rules changed, so that all teams (the island nations included) might be able to afford to attend the RWC.

 

[Muzzy]

Melhor you should check this out, a new article about how european clubs gave island players cars and money to prevent them from playing for their countries in the world cup, and how some island players have now had their contracts terminated because they played in the world cup. I guess this explains why so many fijians withdrew for personal reasons or club commitments, it could even be why a certain samoan number 8 decided to retire from international rugby

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5835961/Rich-Europe-squeezing-life-out-of-Pacific-rugby

 

[ranger]

Ranger

I was talking about Super Rugby teams. There is not blind and uninformed ignorance. Nor is it twisted or straight up wrong. Samoa is a South Pacific country but the players play far away and New Zealand, if it wins the World Cup really needs to work on how it presents itself as a global leader. With its attitude and contribution towards ugby in the region needing attention. Case in point - look at Samoa´s World Cup players and see where they play.

How many are Super Rugby players. Consider the following:

Top 14

Ole Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
Tií Paulo (Clermont)
Census Johnson (Toulouse)
Daniel Leo (Bordeaux-Begles)
Joe Tekori (Castres)
Paul Williams (Stade Français)

Second Division
Manaia Salavea (Narbonne)

There was one Super Rugby player - Mahonri Schwalger and four other New Zealand based players. But they can be compared to Salavea not Avei as the NZ Cup lacks NZ´s top players. All Blacks don´t play.

Samoa´s win vs Australia and strong performances in the World Cup can be attrbuted to European clubs far more so than New Zealand´s system. If you disagree, which is totally fine, I´d be interested in reading. But your first post really is not a good one. Correct me, if I am wrong, but your post ignores the facts. In addtiion to France having more Samoan test players in its league. Wales has four teams, New Zealand five. Wales had players in the Scottish and Irish World Cup teams as well we all of Tonga, Fiji and Samoa. New Zealand had fewer, noticably fewer in fact. Some work is to be done.

You mentioned Kahn Fotuali'i who is no longer in New Zealand. He is contracted to the Ospreys in Wales as is George Stowers. England also has more World Cup Samoans at the elite level than New Zealand did. In fact, England has more than France. Without pro contracts teams are not able to compete.

Aviva Premiership
Anthony Perenise (Bath)
Sakarua Taulafo (London Wasps)
Maurie Fa´asavalu (Harlequins)
Taiasina Tuifu´a (Newcastle)
Junior Polu (Exeter)
Alesana Tuilaga (Leicester Tigers)
Tasesa Lavea (Sale Sharks)
Jonny Leota (Sale Sharks)
Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu (Gloucester)
George Pisi (London Irish)
Sailosi Tagicakibau (London Irish)

This is not a case of opinion. This is a case of you being un-informed.

Where to start..

-Well, the first argument would be that New Zealand systems and coaching have developed almost all of these players into international calibre, only for the NH teams to drop in and take the finished product.

Take Paul Williams for example: NZ born and bred, learnt his rugby in Auckland coming up through the regional and national age grade teams, getting one on one professional coaching from the likes of Christian Cullen and Jeff Wilson at various training camps. Then he got signed to the Highlanders as a 19 year old; he fractured his leg playing for the franchise who poured money into his rehabilitation and recovery which took over four years to completely heal. He then sharpened his game at Canterbury and with the Crusaders for a few seasons before moving north to return to his hometown Auckland and Blues teams, earning the Auckland player of the year award in 2009 and playing well enough to enter the All Blacks frame. Then, in june of last freaking year the Sale Sharks signed 27 year old ready-made professional Williams. After a lifetime in NZ rugby, he has played a grand total of 20 games outside of NZ, but no, great job of helping the Islands out England! You could even go so far as to say that:

Samoa´s win vs Australia and strong performances in the World Cup can be attrbuted to European clubs far more so than New Zealand´s system

The massive majority of the Samoan side have a similar story to Williams. Look at Fotuali'i, he was born in Auckland, has played over 50 NPC games and 30 odd Super Rugby matches, but you can contribute his success to the NH even though he was signed by the ospreys as a 29 year old and hasn't so much as stepped on the field for them before.

-Secondly, the fact that you attempt to make a distinction between the NPC and Super rugby is flawed from the outset. For one, the same entity owns both and pays both salaries. The whole NZRU issue i touched on. The Taranaki side this year lost Andrew Hore to the All Blacks, they had Schwalger for a couple games as his replacement before he left to be a part of the Samoan cup build up. Regardless of the calibre of rugby you seem to think it is, the New Zealand Rugby Union was paying a players salary while they were in Apia training with another unions team. Good on them i say, UK clubs have had battles with their own countries' teams in the player release issue. I also invite you to look at the team lists for all the ITM cup games played, seen as no All Blacks every play in it apparently which deems it the level of second division french rugby...
Cruden played almost every minute of ITM for Manawatu and he has the AB 10 on tonight. Look up SBWs highlights, i would wager most of them would be in a canterbury jersey. Hosea Gear played almost every game, even the likes of Andrew Hore and Conrad Smith trotted out this season.

-The strength of a rugby team does not indicate strength financially. New Zealand is a country of 4 million people isolated in the middle of nowhere. Just because the rugby team plays well does not mean they automatically have the economic strength to compete with the likes of France in offering a load of contracts. Playing rugby professionally in New Zealand just does not pay that well, the lure keeping players here is a black jersey; once that is no longer a goal, the players have the option to stay in NZ for a small contract or go overseas for a large contract. This is generally an easy decision to make.
Of the players that spurn larger overseas deals to stay in New Zealand (Kane Thompson and Schwalger have signed to super teams thus far) they only do so because of family ties. I can say this with 100% confidence: the NH pays the average player more than they make in NZ super rugby. I have a first cousin who has been in the Chiefs environment for a number of years and has recently moved to a top 14 side, he has said that the pay rise is incomparable and at this stage he is not looking to return to NZ until he retires.

-Where was Brenton Helleur? As i raised before, NH sides franchises are largely independent entities that look to serve their own interests. Pressure is put on their players not to leave, players choose huge medical joker contracts to cover WC stars instead of representing smaller nations.

-The idea you raised of bringing matches against Pacific Island teams to smaller areas? its is a great idea in theory. So great that the NZRU tried that already when they played Samoa in rural New Plymouth in 2008. It was a complete failure. There was a handy crowd that showed up (myself included) but due to NH clubs holding on to players for as long as possible Samoa just weren't up to standard and the All Blacks stacked 100 on them. No one wants to see that and it was a waste of everyones time.

 

[William18]

I should also point out that one thing which the NZRU has been doing has been lobbying the IRB to allow former All Blacks to play for the pacific islands. I am talking about players like Rodney So'oialo, Jerry Collins, Tana Umaga and Joe Rokocoko. This would be immensely beneficial to the islands and the NZRU have been the one lobbying the issue.

Also, consider this: many pacific islanders would rather play overseas. Why? They get paid more. Most New Zealanders believe that the only thing which keeps our best players here is that you must be a New Zealand resident to play for the All Blacks. Therefore why would these players play n New Zealand? They cannot play for the All Blacks and so may as well chase the bigger dollars offshore.

In saying this we probably could play a test in the Pacific islands. I know that those countries would love that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Completely agree that more nations should play in the PIs - Maybe now that proper tours have come back we'll see it happen more

I'd like to see NZ Maori tour the pacific islands

 

[Melhor Time]

This is not a case of opinion. This is a case of you being un-informed.

Do you honestly expect a response?

-Well, the first argument would be that New Zealand systems and coaching have developed almost all of these players into international calibre, only for the NH teams to drop in and take the finished product.

Take Paul Williams for example: NZ born and bred, learnt his rugby in Auckland coming up through the regional and national age grade teams, getting one on one professional coaching from the likes of Christian Cullen and Jeff Wilson at various training camps. Then he got signed to the Highlanders as a 19 year old; he fractured his leg playing for the franchise who poured money into his rehabilitation and recovery which took over four years to completely heal. He then sharpened his game at Canterbury and with the Crusaders for a few seasons before moving north to return to his hometown Auckland and Blues teams, earning the Auckland player of the year award in 2009 and playing well enough to enter the All Blacks frame. Then, in june of last freaking year the Sale Sharks signed 27 year old ready-made professional Williams. After a lifetime in NZ rugby, he has played a grand total of 20 games outside of NZ, but no, great job of helping the Islands out England! You could even go so far as to say that:

The massive majority of the Samoan side have a similar story to Williams. Look at Fotuali'i, he was born in Auckland, has played over 50 NPC games and 30 odd Super Rugby matches, but you can contribute his success to the NH even though he was signed by the ospreys as a 29 year old and hasn't so much as stepped on the field for them before.[/QUOTE]

All good and well. Both mentioned players had loads of chances to play for New Zealand. They were closer to 30 than 20. Then there is a pklayer like Ma´a Nonu who has had a long career at the Hurricanes but is to play for the Blues next season. The Hurricanes region is where he is from. They taught him how to play, etc, etc but now he is to trade them for an Auckland team. If your argument is correct then that means Ma´a Nonu the same as Paul Williams. The difference of playing for another country matters not. People from the Hurricanes from grass roots to the professional team itself put in years and years inton making him who he is. Auckland did nothing but he is to play for them.

If you want to get down to what produces players its the volunteers. They don´t get paid. The highschool coaches, the club coaches. I am one. Ive doen more for rugby than you have and honestly am quite insulted to read a guy calling someone else ignorant. This is what I am talking about when I say New Zealanders as World Champions need to change themselves.

-Secondly, the fact that you attempt to make a distinction between the NPC and Super rugby is flawed from the outset.

Actually it is crucial. In order for players to develop they need regular game time against equal or better players. In the ITM Cup the top players are missing and thus it is not the same product as Super Rugby. More importantly, this ignores the reality and does not answer the question, let alone address it, that Super Rugby teams have few to no imports. I would, kindly, ask you to take a look at Wales´four teams and the players there. Its proof that there is plenty of room for foreign players.

For one, the same entity owns both and pays both salaries. The whole NZRU issue i touched on. The Taranaki side this year lost Andrew Hore to the All Blacks, they had Schwalger for a couple games as his replacement before he left to be a part of the Samoan cup build up. Regardless of the calibre of rugby you seem to think it is, the New Zealand Rugby Union was paying a players salary while they were in Apia training with another unions team. Good on them i say, UK clubs have had battles with their own countries' teams in the player release issue. I also invite you to look at the team lists for all the ITM cup games played, seen as no All Blacks every play in it apparently which deems it the level of second division french rugby...
Cruden played almost every minute of ITM for Manawatu and he has the AB 10 on tonight. Look up SBWs highlights, i would wager most of them would be in a canterbury jersey. Hosea Gear played almost every game, even the likes of Andrew Hore and Conrad Smith trotted out this season.

Misleading. Of all the All Blacks from this years World Cup how many played regularly in the ITM Cup. We both know the answer is very, very low. Of all English and French players (in the lagues I mention) who many played regularly. The answer is a polar opposite.

-The strength of a rugby team does not indicate strength financially. New Zealand is a country of 4 million people isolated in the middle of nowhere. Just because the rugby team plays well does not mean they automatically have the economic strength to compete with the likes of France in offering a load of contracts. Playing rugby professionally in New Zealand just does not pay that well, the lure keeping players here is a black jersey; once that is no longer a goal, the players have the option to stay in NZ for a small contract or go overseas for a large contract. This is generally an easy decision to make.
Of the players that spurn larger overseas deals to stay in New Zealand (Kane Thompson and Schwalger have signed to super teams thus far) they only do so because of family ties. I can say this with 100% confidence: the NH pays the average player more than they make in NZ super rugby. I have a first cousin who has been in the Chiefs environment for a number of years and has recently moved to a top 14 side, he has said that the pay rise is incomparable and at this stage he is not looking to return to NZ until he retires.

Wales has a smaller population than New Zealand. The squads are not operating on high salaries.

-Where was Brenton Helleur? As i raised before, NH sides franchises are largely independent entities that look to serve their own interests. Pressure is put on their players not to leave, players choose huge medical joker contracts to cover WC stars instead of representing smaller nations.

It happens. Nothing is perfect but the fact remains that the contracts that the NH teams give to imported players is far and away the overwhelming reason for why 2011 was the most competitive World Cup ever.

-The idea you raised of bringing matches against Pacific Island teams to smaller areas? its is a great idea in theory. So great that the NZRU tried that already when they played Samoa in rural New Plymouth in 2008. It was a complete failure. There was a handy crowd that showed up (myself included) but due to NH clubs holding on to players for as long as possible Samoa just weren't up to standard and the All Blacks stacked 100 on them. No one wants to see that and it was a waste of everyones time.

That match was pretty well attended. Better than Namibia vs Wales at the same venue. I was there. You cannot blame clubs for not releasing players. It was a match that could have been organized in June but it wasn´t. Both the NZRU and Samoa knew that Samoa would miss loads of players but went ahead with the match. A lot of parties can be blamed. The simple facts are that New Zealand has never played an officail international match in Samoa, Fiji or Tonga ever. Wales are to play in each of them in 2017. It is confirmed. So, when will the All Blacks go there?

With the upgraded venues in New Zealand more test matches are a must. The Pacific trio should all play there as should other tier two sides like Canada, USA, Georgia and Japan. The venues are simply too small for Four Nations or Six Nations opposition. If I worked for the NZRU I would go for 5 tests every June with two mid week matches agaisnt tier two sides. For instance:

Sat NZ vs Samoa, Hamilton
Fri NZ vs Ireland, Auckland
Sat NZ vs Ireland, Wellington
Sat NZ vs Ireland, Dunedin
Wed NZ vs Fiji, Whangarei

Completely agree that more nations should play in the PIs - Maybe now that proper tours have come back we'll see it happen more

I'd like to see NZ Maori tour the pacific islands [/INDENT]

Wales are leading the way. Hopefully others follow. Wales are also to play in Japan in 2013.

I am not, personally, in favor of the Maori team playing away matches. If they can then it, really should be the All Blacks. No excuses.

 

[William18]

Are you actually blaming the NZRU because players from the pacific islands choose to play in Europe? I'm sorry if I'm incorrect but that is what I'm getting from your posts.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, that Paul Williams argument really just agreed with what Ranger was saying

 

[Melhor Time]

Are you actually blaming the NZRU because players from the pacific islands choose to play in Europe? I'm sorry if I'm incorrect but that is what I'm getting from your posts.

Not at all. Players will play wherever they can. They´ll take the best offer on the table almost always. If the Ospreys can have two leading Samoan internationals then so can the Hurricanes.

I am saying that, in my opinion, as World Champions New Zealand needs to be a global leader and this means:

- Be proud but set an example. Step up efforts to encourage the increased improvement of tier two sides.
- Send the All Blacks to Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.
- Look to host each of them at a time when they can field their best players (unlike the 2008 test)
- Professional contracts to the best avaliable players the team can get.
- Allow foreign based players to play for the All Blacks.
- More international matches against different teams in general.
- No threats of boycoting a World Cup

If France can have over 35 Argentine players in the Top 14 then New Zealand should be able to have top players from abroad too. I said the same things about South Africa four years ago. I asked for greater progress for black players, work to be done for the African continent and so on.

 

[Seaton]

Not at all. Players will play wherever they can. They´ll take the best offer on the table almost always. If the Ospreys can have two leading Samoan internationals then so can the Hurricanes.

If France can have over 35 Argentine players in the Top 14 then New Zealand should be able to have top players from abroad too.

You are going in circles in the same post. If they dinnae have the money, what are they supposed to do? Clearly even Wales have more to spunk on foreign players than New Zealand, or else yon former or budding All Blacks would either still be in New Zealand or a French team. If a foriegn player can earn more player in Europe than New Zealand, how is that New Zealand's problem?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

You're also missing the point that very rarely would NZ teams be better off by having foreign talent in them.

Wales' teams are boosted hugely by players that come from overseas as they don't have the same depth as NZ teams - we just don't need foreign players as much as other countries do.

 

[Melhor Time]

[/QUOTE]

You are going in circles in the same post. If they dinnae have the money, what are they supposed to do? Clearly even Wales have more to spunk on foreign players than New Zealand, or else yon former or budding All Blacks would either still be in New Zealand or a French team. If a foriegn player can earn more player in Europe than New Zealand, how is that New Zealand's problem?

They do have the money and, actually, need the players. Unless, the teams are happy with losing mroe than they won. Two of the five NZ Super Rugby teams lost more than they won in 2011.

You're also missing the point that very rarely would NZ teams be better off by having foreign talent in them.

Wales' teams are boosted hugely by players that come from overseas as they don't have the same depth as NZ teams - we just don't need foreign players as much as other countries do.

I dispute that. Not all of NZ´s Super Rugby sides are top level teams. Some a re better than others as is the case of Australia and South Africa. The fact is none of the3 three have enough high quality players to fill the five teams. This is where imported players are needed. Looking at the NZ teams from 2011 the Chiefs, Highlanders and Hurricanes all needed better players. The Highlanders record was 8 wins and 8 loses. The Hurricanes won 5 and lost 9 and the Chiefs won 6 and lost 9.

BTW go celebrate the RWC win! Get off the computer!

 

[Seaton]

Lets just say I disagree on the points of New Zealand having enough money, and that they 'need' foreign players to improve their teams.

One could right a short thesis on why the latter is not true, but I am nae interested so I'll leave it to the New Zealanders.

 

[UilamOsa]

Not at all. Players will play wherever they can. They´ll take the best offer on the table almost always. If the Ospreys can have two leading Samoan internationals then so can the Hurricanes.

I am saying that, in my opinion, as World Champions New Zealand needs to be a global leader and this means:

- Be proud but set an example. Step up efforts to encourage the increased improvement of tier two sides. (1)
- Send the All Blacks to Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. (2)
- Look to host each of them at a time when they can field their best players (unlike the 2008 test) (3)
- Professional contracts to the best avaliable players the team can get. (4)
- Allow foreign based players to play for the All Blacks. (5)
- More international matches against different teams in general. (6)
- No threats of boycoting a World Cup (7)

If France can have over 35 Argentine players in the Top 14 then New Zealand should be able to have top players from abroad too. I said the same things about South Africa four years ago. I asked for greater progress for black players, work to be done for the African continent and so on.

(1) They have tried through the IRB to have former players be allowed to play for the Tier 2 nations. NZ Coaches are EVERYWHERE. Ex-NZ Players are EVERYWHERE.
(2) (3) This is in the hands of the owners of the PI players contracts (Usually NH teams - no offence NH), and using the Pacific Nations Cup as an example - The Island based teams still do not have their best teams available for even this.
(4) Professional Contracts are available - however the money paid to foreigners outweighs the NZ dollar
(5) This is nonsensical, it would destroy the S15 for NZ and create havoc for the All Blacks. Only 1 player from overseas would have made a difference for the AB's (Nick Evans)
(6) Against who? Take away the revenue gained for either team, how would it benefit other lower tier 2 or 3 teams if they were getting destroyed by the AB's? Perhaps have a NZ Barbarians team or the Idea I'm most keen about is send the NZ Maori's on tour around the WORLD.
(7) Agreed - although, all they really did is indicate that NZ may not afford to have a team in the next world cup.

NZ rugby union operated at a loss of Millions in 09 and 2010. This world cup has also put NZ and NZRU at a loss of millions. And this is the (now) Top team in the world. What you're asking for is not impossible, but highly unlikely.

As for the s15 teams - that's debatable.

I've had my fill of partying, i'm going to have a nap there's a street parade to wake up for.