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[Natwest 6 Nations] Round 4 : France Vs England (10/03/2018)

I don't see how you can't start Sinckler. When on song he is a game changer, the kind of powerful running game that should make "traditional" props redundant.

What does Cole offer? He swaggers from scrum to scrum like he's carrying two rolls of invisible carpet but doesn't actually seem to bring any positives.
 
But then compare that to hartley is an ok carrier and around the park, he doesnt fill me with confidence, but 97% LCD shows he can throw well. But he is a damn good carrier, i believe he needs experience and game time to prove himself, he's proved it at prem level so needs to get him on the pitch for england or we will be heading to the wrc with 2 experienced hookers and thats it. Plus only had a week with england to learn all the calls and work with thr players.
 
LCD should get another chance and time spent in the England camp, being more involved with Borthwick etc will only help.

Sinckler and Haskell made huge impacts. Sinckler in 23 minutes carried 9 times, making the gainline 7 times I believe? He also made a few tackles.

Haskell managed 7 carries for 21 metres too. Looked effective for me, barring that one penalty.
 
And most have been given sufficient rest by their clubs. The English have been flogged. Obviously we have more problems than that but it certainly doesn't help.

Actually looking at the Ireland team:
15. Kearney - Didn't go
14. Earls - Didn't go
13. Ringrose - Didn't go, has had months out with an injury to heal
12. Aki - Didn't go
11. Stockdale - Didn't go
10. Sexton - Went but has been rotated at Leinster
9. Murray - Went, idk about rotation but isn't in a very physical position regardless
8. Stander - Yeah he's been flogged.
7. Leavy - Didn't go
6. O'Mahony - Went, idk about rotation
5. Toner - Didn't go
4. Ryan - Didn't go
3. Furlong - Went, has been rotated
2. Best - Went, idk about rotation
1. Healy - Didn't go

Only 5 of the starting 15 toured and at least 2 of those have seen sufficient amounts of rotation.

England however; Watson, Daly, Te'o, Farrell, Lawes, Itoje, Cole, George and Vunipola of the starters and Marler, Sinckler, Haskell and Joseph of the bench all toured and very few have seen any rest through anything but injury.
Yep, but Mcgrath, Henderson, SOB, Henshaw and Payne all toured too. Most of those would be in their first choice 23.

Where you're absolutely right is that the Irish guys have been rested and ours haven't.
 
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Just watched some of it again without the beers, shame we can't make whole sale changes for this tournament, just to shove a rocket up the boys.

We can go around and around with Lions hang over, players playing out of position etc, seems to me the biggest issue is the hunger, passion and desire to win the individual battles, Robshaw was possibly the only player who really had it, with exception to the subs, the last quarter of the two matches is the only time we really seem to have had it by which time it's been too late.

Sure u can't expect players out of position to play as well as they do in their natural position but you can ask for 100%, how many of them if ask can honestly say they did?
 
I can't disagree more about the lack of desire, commitment, passion etc comments.

The players never gave up, and could have clinched victory at the death. The players dropped to their knees like they had lost a cup final.

We lacked a game plan, and didn't alter the way we played and have been found out. You can't blame the players for playing to a strategy with a handful of them out of position.
 
It is not the players fault.
We saw it with Lancaster, they had a debacle at the RWC, and a few months later they were on fire with a new coach and a new strategy.
Here we are again and the coach is out of ideas and the players are out of position and England are facing another debacle.
The pressure is now red hot on Eddie Jones.
Pride and passion are at stake but so much more in terms of the road ahead.
If they lose three on the trot this will be a major stumbling block on the path to RWC glory.
 
All this "it's not the players' fault" stuff is true only to an extent.

I don't like players playing out of position. That's 1000% down to the coach.

The coach also sets the shape and strategy during training. Hopefully he listens to the senior players during that.

But the coach does not cross the whitewash. When the game starts the players have to react to what's happening in front of their noses, not what they hoped might happen during one of their interminable sessions at Pennyhill Park. If that means ripping up the script in the first half, so be it. Who were the big voices supporting Faz on Saturday? Who is bringing a "rugby brain" to bear?

Our Plan A has been found out. As yet I don't see a Plan B. And that's before you even start on selection.
 
I really expected to see a reaction this week after Scotland but it was just the same issues and problems again. I was still backing England to beat Ireland at home before this game but I'm not so sure now.
 
I don't particularly like stats, but some are telling. Against Fra & Sco:

Pens conceded: 16, 13
Turnovers conceded: 11, 15
Turnovers won: 3, 4
Tackles missed: 16, 17.

You can't win matches like that.
 
Perhaps I'm being a bit over the top but I think England's ball retention the past two games has been the worst of T1 nation I've seen.
 
All this "it's not the players' fault" stuff is true only to an extent.

I don't like players playing out of position. That's 1000% down to the coach.

The coach also sets the shape and strategy during training. Hopefully he listens to the senior players during that.

But the coach does not cross the whitewash. When the game starts the players have to react to what's happening in front of their noses, not what they hoped might happen during one of their interminable sessions at Pennyhill Park. If that means ripping up the script in the first half, so be it. Who were the big voices supporting Faz on Saturday? Who is bringing a "rugby brain" to bear?

Our Plan A has been found out. As yet I don't see a Plan B. And that's before you even start on selection.
Of course, devising Plan B is also down to the coach.

Whilst I agree with you, that the coach doesn't cross the whitewash, and the players need to be authorised, and be intelligent enough, to rip up the gameplan and devise a new one on the hoof - I think that's an ideal that suffered it's last throws 17 years ago.
Modern coaches will not allow such behaviour, and players will be disciplined / dropped, and told in no uncertain terms to trust the plan, to trust the procedures put in place for them. Consequently, players are not used to being allowed to do such things, and would be using mental muscles they've never exercised to do so. Quite apart from which, you still need a cohesive plan - there's no point in the FH inventing a new plan if the other 14 player on the pitch aren't on the same wavelength. If he looks like trying, then on come the watercarriers with messages to stop being a silly bugger, and if you do that again we've got someone else on the bench willing to do what they're told.
What you espouse is the Brian Ashton philosophy of empowering the players - 20 years ago, this was just about still working but only if the players were also working under guidelines from above, and were switching plans to a different, pre-agreed and trained plan.
11 years ago, the players revolted when empowered, and cried out for guidance, boundaries and play-books to details what each individuals has to do up to the 12th phase in any given area of the pitch. This includes those who already had 1 foot on the coaching ladder (Catt, Farrell) and who'd worked extensively with Ashton before (Borthwick, Barkley, Y2K remnants) and even his fellow coaches (Ford, Wells)
We're not quite up to American sports standards where they have a break and a bit of coaching after every play; but with water carriers bringing on messages, and often being member of the coaching staff - we're really not far off. The players have as much autonomy and say in the shape of the game as the pieces on a chess board - it's the coach who's moving them around and telling them where to go.

My solution would be to have neutral water-carriers; or at least, no form of communication between them and the coaching staff; so no way of getting messages onto the pitch. I can't see any current Prem or international level coach accepting a player who rips up the script in the first half, and allows them to stay on said pitch. I can't think of any current players who would be happy/comfortable doing so. I can't think of that many stars from the past who'd be happy ceding that much say to the coach.
 
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Finally a good result for France, and it was with the manner, was long awaited. I agree with comments that England were not prepared well for that match, they looked without juice, partly because of this high powered french team.

Long time I have not seen a french team being that dominant against a top world team. The breakdown was very impressive.

I hear the penalty try could maybe be discussed a bit but imagine if it is England who is awarded a Penalty try in the same position, you would not even shed a tear and we would be called sour grape to context that decision (and the tackler a French terrorist thug :D) . Watson Takes Fall too high and Fall was going for the try so the penalty try is a possibility.

Was bad from Beauxis on the last kick, could have been disastrous.

Now we need confirmation against wales and we need to work on our decision making, just after the penalty try, Guirado misses an almost made try, forgetting 2 players on his wing (Fickou and ..?)

If England win next weekend, won't be that bad for them.

I appreciated the Referering of Peper, I thought the refering in general was quite bad on this tournament, I think we should really retire all the likes of Owens and Barnes, they have too much influence on the outcome of a match and they let their personal or national feeling take over
 
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You nailed it . Lawes is a top class LOCK . As a matter of fact I'd still have him in the team and drop Itoje to the bench .

The 10 would be
1. Ewers
2. Armand
3. Willis
4. Haskell
5. Robshaw
6. Graham
7. Wilson
8. Underhill
9. Mercer
10. Mike Williams

There's likely more too .... There's literally no need to be playing a lock in the back row . All Eddie is doing by continuing it is hanging Lawes out to dry .....

add Brendan O'Connor to that list
 
Perhaps I'm being a bit over the top but I think England's ball retention the past two games has been the worst of T1 nation I've seen.
It's been poor as have other basic skills such as passing and supporting.

WT. You are of course depressingly right. Ripping up the script in the first half was a bit for effect, but the point remains. Players have to be able to adapt and think for themselves. Coaches may not like players going off piste, but they'll like losing, being hammered in the press and being fired even less.
 
Perhaps I'm being a bit over the top but I think England's ball retention the past two games has been the worst of T1 nation I've seen.

I'm quite keen on a bit of hyperbole myself but I was watching the Wales vs Italy game and remarked to my other half that Italy are considerably better in that area than England are. The clean outs are more aggressive and better technically and they stay in the fight as they know it's key to getting the ball back. England were literally inexplicably bad. One off runners slowly running in and falling at the feet of Basteraud, standing around looking dopey as the French counter rucked, deciding that the best way to get go forward ball was receive when stood stock still but looking pretty stern, having seen themselves spanked on the floor deciding not to offload but keep just running into contact and getting turned over etc. etc.

But to top it all there's the simple numbers game that even a prop should be able to work out. If you send a runner and one support player into a ruck situation where the other team commits three (one tackler, two jacklers) the support player needs to be able to clean-out both players pretty much immediately. Now that's pretty much impossible. How did England adapt to this failing? By persisting with it for 80 minutes that's how.
 
I do find it quite odd though how a pack has gone from looking fearsome last year to pedestrian this year. I know Billy is injured but he missed a few games last year. It's real crunch time for Jones now, he really needs to come up with a plan for this week or the Irish are going to have field day at the breakdown.
 
Coaches may not like players going off piste, but they'll like losing, being hammered in the press and being fired even less.

I don't think that's true to be honest, modern game dictates that players must follow the script as they will be the ones losing, hammered in the press and being fired before the coach.

A shrewd coach will have more than plan A however and should tell their team to adapt when necessary... Jones does not seem to have that yet. There is no attack coach either which is pretty ludicrous. Not sure what's going on with Borthwick either as he was rightfully considered one of the best [albeit a bit shady alongside the RFU for breaking contract] but the England pack which he oversees now is a shambles. How much of that responsibility for the current state is shared between the two is open to debate, and something we likely won't find out for some time to come.
 
not a great england team. The main problem is selection
back row is an absolute mess all players in wrong positions and missing billy v
Backs look robotic. also not choosing the best hooker and yes sinkler should start.
ford is a bit off too
brown brave but doesnt cut the line much
loads of good players in england just not picking the right ones imo
 
I don't think that's true to be honest, modern game dictates that players must follow the script as they will be the ones losing, hammered in the press and being fired before the coach.

A shrewd coach will have more than plan A however and should tell their team to adapt when necessary... Jones does not seem to have that yet. There is no attack coach either which is pretty ludicrous. Not sure what's going on with Borthwick either as he was rightfully considered one of the best [albeit a bit shady alongside the RFU for breaking contract] but the England pack which he oversees now is a shambles. How much of that responsibility for the current state is shared between the two is open to debate, and something we likely won't find out for some time to come.

Ah Borthwick. When he was captain, many people, me included, felt he didn't have the gravitas for the role. Similarly a lot of us said at the time he was appointed that his coaching credentials were pretty lightweight. He's a self confessed line out geek, maybe it's his over focus there that's led to the failed 3 locks experiment. Who knows?

It's right to acknowledge that Bothwick et al were in place during the winning run. But it's also right to say that the sign of real quality in both players and coaches is how they respond to adversity. In Paris there was no response and let's face it, well as both Sco and Fra played, neither are more than decent. Ire are on a different level. This weekend's a massive test for players and staff alike. Another disorganised defeat may have some interesting repercussions.
 

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