Natwest 6 Nations] Round 3 : France vs Italy 23/02/2018 2000hrs UTC/GMT

[Leonormous Boozer]

Italy gain nothing from it, being routinely routed by superior teams does nothing to help a team, all it does is destroy confidence. I'm not proposing we replace Italy, I'm proposing we get rid of them entirely from the tournament. My personal preference is 2 leagues with 4 teams where at least most of the games will be close and there won't be 1 team that are frankly just whipping boys. I mean feel free to correct me and show what Italy have offered besides the odd upset here and there and the largest set of wooden cooking utensils...

Italy definitely bring money to the table that Romania and Georgia can't anyway,they stop the tournament from being a dysfunctional odd numbered tournament, from 2010-2013 they were reasonably formidable if not a winning team and there was a long period where the Scots were just as bad.

Would two four team leagues have close games or would the top tier be very competitive while the second tier will just be one side dominating while Italy comfortably come second? I think four is too small, six is too big with Italy having regressed badly since 2013, five is right but less marketable. Robbing South Africa from the RC is the best bet that I've heard get thrown about!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Italy definitely bring money to the table that Romania and Georgia can't anyway,they stop the tournament from being a dysfunctional odd numbered tournament, from 2010-2013 they were reasonably formidable if not a winning team and there was a long period where the Scots were just as bad.

Would two four team leagues have close games or would the top tier be very competitive while the second tier will just be one side dominating while Italy comfortably come second? I think four is too small, six is too big with Italy having regressed badly since 2013, five is right but less marketable. Robbing South Africa from the RC is the best bet that I've heard get thrown about!

You think Italy bring more to the table than doubling the amount of fixtures in England, Wales, Ireland and France/Scotland would bring? I doubt it. I've already said my proposal is 2 4 nation tournaments with home and away games which would be more functional than any previous iteration. Little bit of trivia, Italy have NEVER finished in the top half of the 6N and have more wooden spoons than everyone else combined.

I'd say if you argue finance then 2 tiers with 4 teams would raise more. If you argue exposure of T2 teams to T1 teams then the same. Fact is, Italy contribute nothing to the tournament except seeing who can rack up the biggest points difference. All these games do is destroy the confidence of Italian players knowing that, at best, they might scrape 2 wins and not get a wooden spoon. For literally every other nation Italy's best is a failure.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

You think Italy bring more to the table than doubling the amount of fixtures in England, Wales, Ireland and France/Scotland would bring? I doubt it. I've already said my proposal is 2 4 nation tournaments with home and away games which would be more functional than any previous iteration. Little bit of trivia, Italy have NEVER finished in the top half of the 6N and have more wooden spoons than everyone else combined.

I'd say if you argue finance then 2 tiers with 4 teams would raise more. If you argue exposure of T2 teams to T1 teams then the same. Fact is, Italy contribute nothing to the tournament except seeing who can rack up the biggest points difference. All these games do is destroy the confidence of Italian players knowing that, at best, they might scrape 2 wins and not get a wooden spoon. For literally every other nation Italy's best is a failure.

Tier 1 would be great, there is no doubt about that, go down to tier two though and you've got nothing. Losing one home game could easily condemn you to a year in purgatory with nothing to learn or gain, essentially leaving a side with the exact opposite problem to Italy that no other European side faces by having no real competition in that 2nd tier. I think it's far too harsh on last place, it's also a no go considering the unions would have to sign off on it.

 

[Brigantine]

Seems like the Options are Italy, Georgia, South Africa, Japan, possibly Argentina, or a rest week.

Japan's competitiveness would be no better than Georgia, but they do have money.

 

[JJFlash]

As dear ol' Bill McLaren would say, "There'll be dancing on the streets of Mont de Marsan tonight - France have won a game!"

 

[bushytop]

Seems like the Options are Italy, Georgia, South Africa, Japan, possibly Argentina, or a rest week.

Japan's competitiveness would be no better than Georgia, but they do have money.

I'd be happy with a home and away play off for spooners vs b champs.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Damn. France were as poor as I anticipated but Italy failed to bring their 'A' game. Possibly even their 'B' game. Nice try at the end, but so what?

At 14-10 down, the crowd booing France and an attacking lineout on the French five metre line I thought the stars might be in alignment.

How is the Italian defence regressing at an international level but improving at club level? Scotland and Wales will put north of 50 on Italy. If Wales play Patchell I may have to hide behind the sofa.

Before the game I called out Beauxis, Basteraud and the Italian lineout as things that give Italy no concern. Me and my big mouth.

 

[EDT]

Damn. France were as poor as I anticipated but Italy failed to bring their 'A' game. Possibly even their 'B' game. Nice try at the end, but so what?

At 14-10 down, the crowd booing France and an attacking lineout on the French five metre line I thought the stars might be in alignment.

How is the Italian defence regressing at an international level but improving at club level? Scotland and Wales will put north of 50 on Italy. If Wales play Patchell I may have to hide behind the sofa.

Before the game I called out Beauxis, Basteraud and the Italian lineout as things that give Italy no concern. Me and my big mouth.

It is a sign of a good team to be playing badly and still winning. Good to see France on the up.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

http://www.the42.ie/italian-rugby-progress-zebre-benetton-3880030-Mar2018/

Good article here, shows Italy are clearly building from the ground up and have structure that they have never had before under O'Shea. They didn't capitalise on their previous group of strong players whose careers are over or ending now, O'Shea is building a new base and won't let an opportunity like they had 5-7 years ago slip through their fingers again.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

http://www.the42.ie/italian-rugby-progress-zebre-benetton-3880030-Mar2018/

Good article here, shows Italy are clearly building from the ground up and have structure that they have never had before under O'Shea. They didn't capitalise on their previous group of strong players whose careers are over or ending now, O'Shea is building a new base and won't let an opportunity like they had 5-7 years ago slip through their fingers again.

A good read, thanks. A wee morale boost to see me through two likely upcoming doings at the hands of Wales and Scotland.

Of course I would love more Italians involved in the coaching / training side of things, but a lot of the assistant coaches and trainers are Italian and will be learning a lot more as small cogs in a competitive environment than they would by being dropped into senior positions prematurely. Questionmarks must remain over CoS' ability as a head coach at international level but I really think we will see a lot of continued progress in the Pro14 level in the next 24months; and a lasting legacy for the next decade as the likes of Troncon and Bortolami maybe get promoted as coaches.

The one thing that unites the other struggling Tier 1 sides (France & Argentina in particular, but maybe also SA and Oz) is that they seem a little too proud to consider coaches from other countries to effectively mentor their own coaching talent. Argentina in pariticulsr seem like they are in a dead end with their coaching pool.