Mr. Schmidt's Wild Ride - Ireland 2015 6 Nations

[Leonormous Boozer]

Because I'm sick as a dog, my team to face Italy
15. Kearney
14. Bowe
13. Fitzgerald
12. Henshaw
11. Earls
10. Madigan
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. Murphy
6. O'Mahoney
5. Toner
4. O'Connell
3. Moore
2. Best
1. McGrath

16. Strauss
17. Kilcoyne
18. Ross
19. Henderson
20. O'Brien
21. Reddan
22. Keatley
23. McFadden

i think they're all fit?! If McFadden isn't Id throw Jones on the bench.

 

[Feicarsinn]

O'Brien and Henderson coming on against a tired pack is mean.

 

[munstermuffin]

My starting 15.
Kearney
Bowe
Earls/Fitz
Henshaw
Zebo
Keatley
Murray
Heaslip
Sob
POM
POC
Toner
Moore
Best
McGrath

Cronin
Cronin
Ross
Henderson
TOD
Reddan
Madigan (has showed he hasn't the control for full 80)
Earls/Fitz

From rumours I've heard from guys here who were in camp last week.

Kearney
Bowe
Henshaw
Payne
Zebo
Madigan and Keatley trained in rotation
Murray
Heaslip
TOD
POM
POC
Toner
Moore and Ross both rotated
Best
McGrath but Healy did train.


Cmac if you missed other night Madigan practically ruined his chances for 10. Kik one definitely won't be on bench as he's here in Lanzarote with our camp.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ireland is a strong first XV, but the question mark hangs over the quality of their bench.
Their coach is dynamite and I'm expecting BIG results from the green machine after an autumn of wonder and great joy against two of the southern hemisphere powerhouses.
Good luck Ireland and Joe Schmidt.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A games don't speak for an awful lot muff, if Madigan ruined his chances then so did McGrath, D'Arcy, Fitzgerald by not playing, McFadden through going off early and many more players. It's a different prospect playing with a team that has gelled before and knows one another so I'd definitely go with Madigan, Keatley just lacks a few too many aspects of a good 10 to be an international IMO.

 

[munstermuffin]

A games don't speak for an awful lot muff, if Madigan ruined his chances then so did McGrath, D'Arcy, Fitzgerald by not playing, McFadden through going off early and many more players. It's a different prospect playing with a team that has gelled before and knows one another so I'd definitely go with Madigan, Keatley just lacks a few too many aspects of a good 10 to be an international IMO.

No but as a good analysis showed. He hasn't controlled a game well in ages. Even the last few games for Leinster that's he's played 10 he hasn't but it was overlooked because of him doing something like the quick tap vs Ulster. Regards Keatley I agree he is too inconsistent and lacks attributes too but his kicking from open play is much better. Madigan was under pressure before A game as he hadn't done very well at 10 but simply just confirmed what last few weeks were.
Regards other guys McGrath was ok and got his game time. Fitz didn't play so how'd that make him worst. McFadden got injured and well D'Arcy has been **** poor last few week and is another that should be cast aside and not be depended on. My point regards Madigan is though he makes much better impact as a 10 coming of the bench. He's not a 10 to give the platform and it was clear in his last few games for Leinster at 10 and Friday night that he found it awkward kicking and was forcing it at times.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No but as a good analysis showed. He hasn't controlled a game well in ages. Even the last few games for Leinster that's he's played 10 he hasn't but it was overlooked because of him doing something like the quick tap vs Ulster. Regards Keatley I agree he is too inconsistent and lacks attributes too but his kicking from open play is much better. Madigan was under pressure before A game as he hadn't done very well at 10 but simply just confirmed what last few weeks were.
Regards other guys McGrath was ok and got his game time. Fitz didn't play so how'd that make him worst. McFadden got injured and well D'Arcy has been **** poor last few week and is another that should be cast aside and not be depended on. My point regards Madigan is though he makes much better impact as a 10 coming of the bench. He's not a 10 to give the platform and it was clear in his last few games for Leinster at 10 and Friday night that he found it awkward kicking and was forcing it at times.

If you're under such pressure with a team who aren't really bothered to go out and play, which the Wolfhounds weren't, any 10 will play like he did. If you look to the Autumn internationals or last years six nations Madigan was in the same abject form with Leinster and did well in his Ireland cameos, Schmidt knows how to get the very best out of Madigan and always has done. Trying to get him to control a game with a 9, 12 and back three all who can't kick isn't the way to do it and won't be the case in Rome. If we want to put a score on the Italians, which we should considering last year's table, Madigan should go 10 as the duties which he doesn't do as well as Keatley are made up for by the likes of Murray, Kearney and Henshaw better than Keatley's weaknesses could be made up for considering they're more to do with structure than anything else.

 

[munstermuffin]

If you're under such pressure with a team who aren't really bothered to go out and play, which the Wolfhounds weren't, any 10 will play like he did. If you look to the Autumn internationals or last years six nations Madigan was in the same abject form with Leinster and did well in his Ireland cameos, Schmidt knows how to get the very best out of Madigan and always has done. Trying to get him to control a game with a 9, 12 and back three all who can't kick isn't the way to do it and won't be the case in Rome. If we want to put a score on the Italians, which we should considering last year's table, Madigan should go 10 as the duties which he doesn't do as well as Keatley are made up for by the likes of Murray, Kearney and Henshaw better than Keatley's weaknesses could be made up for considering they're more to do with structure than anything else.

Well I can safely say your the 1st person I've heard from Leinster say Madigan isn't a problem at 10. And just so I clear your saying Madigan should be at 10 and the reason for his abject form is the guys around him, most who will be involved again vs Italy. And why he couldn't dislodge Gopperth is same reason. And well in international 6Nations you need a 10 that can kick tactically. We won't put a big score up on Italians as its their 1st game and in Rome so they'll be tough regardless. And Schmidt won't be thinking score difference. Main thing is getting wins. Just to put it also Murray hasn't played in while so his kicking may be rusty, and our 12 unlikely to have kicking game and Henshaw hasn't kicking game so I don't get you. Yes Kearney can boot it as can Zebo but they aren't tactical kickers. And large part of Schmidts plan is tactical kicking which is why Madigan kicked a good bit vs Saxons.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well I can safely say your the 1st person I've heard from Leinster say Madigan isn't a problem at 10. And just so I clear your saying Madigan should be at 10 and the reason for his abject form is the guys around him, most who will be involved again vs Italy. And why he couldn't dislodge Gopperth is same reason. And well in international 6Nations you need a 10 that can kick tactically. We won't put a big score up on Italians as its their 1st game and in Rome so they'll be tough regardless. And Schmidt won't be thinking score difference. Main thing is getting wins. Just to put it also Murray hasn't played in while so his kicking may be rusty, and our 12 unlikely to have kicking game and Henshaw hasn't kicking game so I don't get you. Yes Kearney can boot it as can Zebo but they aren't tactical kickers. And large part of Schmidts plan is tactical kicking which is why Madigan kicked a good bit vs Saxons.

Abject form at Leinster = isn't a problem... Right...

What I did say however was that Madigan is a different and better player under Schmidt, he was pushing an on form Sexton for a starting spot in Schmidt's last year with Leinster and has played well for Ireland with Schmidt at the helm. Murray's kicking is unlikely to be rusty coming back from a short term injury, from experience I find that kicking is what stays with you the longest after a break from rugby. Kearney is far more than a big boot, he is an intelligent kicker and strangely underrated in that aspect of his game. Likewise Henshaw is a good kicker of the football, he doesn't do it often but should be encouraged because kicks of the sort he did against South Africa can and have changed games.

Now we can compare how other players around Madigan will help him even more! In terms of the kick chase Bowe and (hopefully) Earls both trump Darragh Fanning, Fergus McFadden and Zane Kirchner who I think I'd be correct in thinking have been involved in all Madigan's games at 10 while Henshaw quite easily trumps D'Arce and if Payne does start ahead of Fitz it's one aspect where he probably is the better of the two. Add this to the fact that Madigan is actually quite a good tactical kicker, better than Gopperth, and not the reason he hasn't started for Leinster and he really should do fine. While Keatley is better at controlling the game I do think it is more down to communication than anything else because Madigan does seem to play a lot more off the cuff rugby than most. Communication won't be an issue on a Joe Schmidt team.

The next issue, which both players have, is running a backline. Keatley doesn't do it and needs a creative 12 to look competent. Madigan tries but lacks vision at times. It's an area where I'd take Madigan due to a couple of reasons. One, he keeps the defensive line honest, he can play both deep and on the gain line. Keatley never attacks the gain line playing far too deep. Two, when showing superiority over the other team Madigan is capable of unleashing his centres and getting his team to score through the middle, Keatley takes a lot more out of it building phase by phase eventually waiting for an overlap and generally scoring out wide. A lot more can go wrong under Keatley and it is one of the reasons Munster couldn't score tries in Europe during periods of dominance. Three, Madigan is more of threat as a running 10 than Keatley.

The fact that Madigan hasn't ousted Gopperth in Leinster is irrelevant, Keatley wouldn't have either in the circumstances. The fact Madigan's form has been shaky is also irrelevant as Keatley's has been too. Madigan is a proven player in the Ireland set up whereas Keatley is not and the only argument for Madigan not to start is that he's played himself out of a spot and not that Keatley has played himself in which he hasn't. Madigan is the better player of two out of form 10's, he's more experienced and more used to winning, has been Schmidt's back up for Sexton and has done well in that position and I think it would be crazy for Schmidt to pick Keatley due to Madigan struggling in Cork for the Wolfhounds.

 

[ruggabee]

Madigan hasn't shown he's a 10 in ages and last night was another game at a higher level demonstrating that. He's always played like a 12 but I think most fans just wish he could be a 10 because he's skillful and a dangerous runner. The worrying thing is he might be too small for a 12 at international level so where does that leave him? Darren Cave who's form has been immaculate for the majority of the club season, and before that, is considered not to be an international quality centre yet the only chances he's been given were in mediocre Irish sides. Why is there more patience afforded to Madigan? I suppose injuries to Sexton and Jackson are partly reason to that. I wouldn't be too fond of Keatley starting but at least it's against Italy, which isn't as tough, and I'd prefer to give a player who actually is a 10 some game time in case we are ever hit with injuries again. Madigan would be great off the bench.

I was reading SOB saying he was blowing out after half an hour, but he has to be involved against Italy to up his match fitness. Don't really care if he's starting or on the bench since we're well covered in the backrow.

Henderson seems to be what we're missing in the tight next to POC. I'd imagine he'd ram some power up the frontrow's backside when they're packing down P), and of course, he's great around the park.

I can't imagine who Schmidt will pick in the midfield. But wouldn't be too worried considering we managed to produce the results in November, when a very surprising midfield was picked. Personally I'd like Henshaw and Fitzgerald.

A bit nervous about this Six Nations but I'll be happy as long as we figure out our combinations coming towards the world cup.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Madigan hasn't shown he's a 10 in ages and last night was another game at a higher level demonstrating that. He's always played like a 12 but I think most fans just wish he could be a 10 because he's skillful and a dangerous runner. The worrying thing is he might be too small for a 12 at international level so where does that leave him? Darren Cave who's form has been immaculate for the majority of the club season, and before that, is considered not to be an international quality centre yet the only chances he's been given were in mediocre Irish sides. Why is there more patience afforded to Madigan? I suppose injuries to Sexton and Jackson are partly reason to that. I wouldn't be too fond of Keatley starting but at least it's against Italy, which isn't as tough, and I'd prefer to give a player who actually is a 10 some game time in case we are ever hit with injuries again. Madigan would be great off the bench.

I was reading SOB saying he was blowing out after half an hour, but he has to be involved against Italy to up his match fitness. Don't really care if he's starting or on the bench since we're well covered in the backrow.

Henderson seems to be what we're missing in the tight next to POC. I'd imagine he'd ram some power up the frontrow's backside when they're packing down P), and of course, he's great around the park.

I can't imagine who Schmidt will pick in the midfield. But wouldn't be too worried considering we managed to produce the results in November, when a very surprising midfield was picked. Personally I'd like Henshaw and Fitzgerald.

A bit nervous about this Six Nations but I'll be happy as long as we figure out our combinations coming towards the world cup.

Ideally we'd have Jackson who was coming into form prior to injury, who is a natural and international class 10 but we've been left with an international class 10/12 hybrid and a 10 who doesn't quite have all that's needed so I think it makes sense to go with the former.

I cant really argue with anything else! Four wins, one being against England who we haven't beaten since before the last World Cup, is very much achievable.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ideally we'd have Jackson who was coming into form prior to injury, who is a natural and international class 10 but we've been left with an international class 10/12 hybrid and a 10 who doesn't quite have all that's needed so I think it makes sense to go with the former.

I cant really argue with anything else! Four wins, one being against England who we haven't beaten since before the last World Cup, is very much achievable.

But Jackson isn't available. I'm by no means saying Keatley is an international 10 just its proven recently he's the better form 10 between him and Madigan. And that's saying a lot about Madigan as Keatley hasn't been great. Madigan is a very good player but there is no way he's an international class 10. Or else I'd love to hear how he'd be rated as an international 10 without a kicking game. He has the skill and talent definitely and has produced his best rugby at 12 or coming off bench at 10.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But Jackson isn't available. I'm by no means saying Keatley is an international 10 just its proven recently he's the better form 10 between him and Madigan. And that's saying a lot about Madigan as Keatley hasn't been great. Madigan is a very good player but there is no way he's an international class 10. Or else I'd love to hear how he'd be rated as an international 10 without a kicking game. He has the skill and talent definitely and has produced his best rugby at 12 or coming off bench at 10.

He produced his best rugby at 10 when winning pro12 player of the year surely?! Criticisms of his kicking game while also stating not displacing Gopperth against him is quite ignorant considering it's an area of his game which is better than Gopperth and generally quite good. He's not a traditional 10 but Schmidt knows what to get out of him. And finally to say he's not an international 10 is ludacrous, he's proven himself in that sense over two years!

 

[ruggabee]

Ideally we'd have Jackson who was coming into form prior to injury, who is a natural and international class 10 but we've been left with an international class 10/12 hybrid and a 10 who doesn't quite have all that's needed so I think it makes sense to go with the former.

I cant really argue with anything else! Four wins, one being against England who we haven't beaten since before the last World Cup, is very much achievable.

I get you. We're just in an unfortunate situation where option 1 isn't a thoroughbred 10 and option 2 is an average 10. It's just I'd rather give game time to the 10 that can run a game, even if it's a simple one, rather than a 10 that has little structure to his play. With all options available, Madigan is a superb spark off the bench. The utility curse I think!

Btw I had no idea it had been that long since we'd beaten England.

 

[munstermuffin]

He produced his best rugby at 10 when winning pro12 player of the year surely?! Criticisms of his kicking game while also stating not displacing Gopperth against him is quite ignorant considering it's an area of his game which is better than Gopperth and generally quite good. He's not a traditional 10 but Schmidt knows what to get out of him. And finally to say he's not an international 10 is ludacrous, he's proven himself in that sense over two years!

Can I ask how he's proven himself as an international 10 in past 2 years?
What game exactly or set of games?

And Schmidt knows you may get away with games in Pro12 but not at international without a kicking game. And Pro 12 player of year?? When??

But as I said I'm sure you'll easily prove the games he's started as a 10 that have shown him to be international class and we'll show the season he won player of year. Golden boot is top points scorer as Madigan kicks at goal but you know that's not player of year.
Just to add in that same year he won Golden Boot 2012-2013 he played as much rugby at centre and 15 in Pro12 as he did at 10. But just because he's a good goal kicker doesn't mean he's a world class 10. I think he's a better talent than Keatley yes but as a 10 he's nothing special as he can't manage a game. And Schmidt will know vs Italy in first game away in Rome it will be tough starting off and you need a game like this managed. If Sexton were fit I'd still have Madigan on bench too as his style is exactly what is needed when game breaks up but to say he's an international class 10 is lunacy. Ireland only have 1 of them and well he's out.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Can I ask how he's proven himself as an international 10 in past 2 years?
What game exactly or set of games?

And Schmidt knows you may get away with games in Pro12 but not at international without a kicking game. And Pro 12 player of year?? When??

But as I said I'm sure you'll easily prove the games he's started as a 10 that have shown him to be international class and we'll show the season he won player of year. Golden boot is top points scorer as Madigan kicks at goal but you know that's not player of year.

Sorry, dream team at out half and Leinster player of the year in a season where they won the pro12 and Amlin cup. Saying Madigan hasn't a kicking game is also incredibly ignorant, it's one of his stronger points as a 10 these days, one of the reasons that I, as a Leinster fan, was calling for him to play 10 when Leinster were playing badly. In the last two seasons he's been Sexton's back up, played consistently and well when needed.

Ian Keatley on the other hand has been at the helm as Munster went from a transition phase to just an average side, which of course is no fault of the coach if fans are to be believed...

This criticism is much like your previous criticisms of Jordi Murphy and Dave Kearney which was proven to be quite wrong.

If Keatley starts next week Ireland will probably still win and Sexton will come back the week after. One thing that won't change is that Madigan will still have the number 22 jersey, one thing that will is that it'll have Madigan questioning his game and it could affect his form. So why go with out of form Keatley, who has a much lower ceiling than Madigan over the next 9 months when Madigan is there as an option who can be, has been and will continue to be a very good 10 under Schmidt and at his best considerably better than Keatley at his respective best.

I've said all there is to be said here, most of which you've chosen to ignore in exchange for "he can't kick", "is only good off the bench" and stating that despite Keatley's own abject form should miraculously be given the 10 shirt. Despite not being proven in any way unlike Madigan.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry, dream team at out half and Leinster player of the year in a season where they won the pro12 and Amlin cup. Saying Madigan hasn't a kicking game is also incredibly ignorant, it's one of his stronger points as a 10 these days, one of the reasons that I, as a Leinster fan, was calling for him to play 10 when Leinster were playing badly. In the last two seasons he's been Sexton's back up, played consistently and well when needed.

Ian Keatley on the other hand has been at the helm as Munster went from a transition phase to just an average side, which of course is no fault of the coach if fans are to be believed...

This criticism is much like your previous criticisms of Jordi Murphy and Dave Kearney which was proven to be quite wrong.

If Keatley starts next week Ireland will probably still win and Sexton will come back the week after. One thing that won't change is that Madigan will still have the number 22 jersey, one thing that will is that it'll have Madigan questioning his game and it could affect his form. So why go with out of form Keatley, who has a much lower ceiling than Madigan over the next 9 months when Madigan is there as an option who can be, has been and will continue to be a very good 10 under Schmidt and at his best considerably better than Keatley at his respective best.

I've said all there is to be said here, most of which you've chosen to ignore in exchange for "he can't kick", "is only good off the bench" and stating that despite Keatley's own abject form should miraculously be given the 10 shirt. Despite not being proven in any way unlike Madigan.

Yes but he didn't play much rugby at 10 as you think. He certainly deserved his spot in that 15 but it was ridiculed by many for people picked in wrong spots or based on very little performances. Can't be taken too seriously. Again I'm begging to ask so if his kicking game is so evident can you show examples or name games of his game management and kicking game? That's all I ask as I haven't seen it.

Keatley has began his 2nd full season as the starter and while last year he brought a team to semi final of Europe and while this year he has struggled at times he's not been the reason for much losses.

How have my criticisms of those 2 been easily proven wrong? And which points were so unjust or wrong that I made about them?

How is Keatley out of form? He's played better than Madigans last 2 games. Is Schmidt concerned with winning vs Italy or looking after Madigan. I suspect the 1st. If he picks Madigan I'm sure he has his reasons. But again I never said Keatley was proven at international. I know he's not and never will make it but you still shy away from answering how Madigan is? Why. You say he got player of year. That was wrong. You said in that year it was clear but he played as much at 12 and 15. So that's wrong.

Again I'm not saying just 'Madigan can't kick'. And maybe Keatley has a lower ceiling over next 9 months but we are talking about next 7 days.

So here's a few and I'm sure you'll answer with detail.
1. When has Madigan proven he's an international class 10? Yes he's international class player and produced great performances at 12 for Leinster and could be great 10 with time.

2. What was so unjust about what I said about Kearney or Murphy and how was I proven so clearly wrong?

3. Where is evidence this season that Madigan has vastly improved his kicking?

4. Schmidt had influence last Friday. Why wasn't Madigans performance better? Schmidt can't risk on hoping Madigan just turns it on under Schmidt always.

5. How is Keatley so out of form? Yes he's been average at best but not out of form?

6. How is Madigan so proven at 10? And if his kicking is so precise now too why can't he get past Gopperth and a lot of Leinster fans agree Gopperth should be 10?

I'm not disliking Madigan and if Schmidt selects him I'll still be shouting for Ireland and sure Schmidt has picked him for a reason. But to be honest I don't agree with "Madigan only turns it on under Schmidt" as that reflects a **** poor attitude at Leinster on Madigans part. And as I said Madigan is a special talent and is an excellent spark but saying that he's a world class 10 is like me saying Earls or Luke Fitz are world class 13s. Which is utter ****** to be honest.

But I'm looking forward to answers. And don't shy around it please answer straight. And also where did Madigan play for most of Amlin and big games in Pro 12 that year too?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes but he didn't play much rugby at 10 as you think. He certainly deserved his spot in that 15 but it was ridiculed by many for people picked in wrong spots or based on very little performances. Can't be taken too seriously. Again I'm begging to ask so if his kicking game is so evident can you show examples or name games of his game management and kicking game? That's all I ask as I haven't seen it.

Keatley has began his 2nd full season as the starter and while last year he brought a team to semi final of Europe and while this year he has struggled at times he's not been the reason for much losses.

How have my criticisms of those 2 been easily proven wrong? And which points were so unjust or wrong that I made about them?

How is Keatley out of form? He's played better than Madigans last 2 games. Is Schmidt concerned with winning vs Italy or looking after Madigan. I suspect the 1st. If he picks Madigan I'm sure he has his reasons. But again I never said Keatley was proven at international. I know he's not and never will make it but you still shy away from answering how Madigan is? Why. You say he got player of year. That was wrong. You said in that year it was clear but he played as much at 12 and 15. So that's wrong.

Again I'm not saying just 'Madigan can't kick'. And maybe Keatley has a lower ceiling over next 9 months but we are talking about next 7 days.

So here's a few and I'm sure you'll answer with detail.
1. When has Madigan proven he's an international class 10? Yes he's international class player and produced great performances at 12 for Leinster and could be great 10 with time.

2. What was so unjust about what I said about Kearney or Murphy and how was I proven so clearly wrong?

3. Where is evidence this season that Madigan has vastly improved his kicking?

4. Schmidt had influence last Friday. Why wasn't Madigans performance better? Schmidt can't risk on hoping Madigan just turns it on under Schmidt always.

5. How is Keatley so out of form? Yes he's been average at best but not out of form?

6. How is Madigan so proven at 10? And if his kicking is so precise now too why can't he get past Gopperth and a lot of Leinster fans agree Gopperth should be 10?

I'm not disliking Madigan and if Schmidt selects him I'll still be shouting for Ireland and sure Schmidt has picked him for a reason. But to be honest I don't agree with "Madigan only turns it on under Schmidt" as that reflects a **** poor attitude at Leinster on Madigans part. And as I said Madigan is a special talent and is an excellent spark but saying that he's a world class 10 is like me saying Earls or Luke Fitz are world class 13s. Which is utter ****** to be honest.

But I'm looking forward to answers. And don't shy around it please answer straight. And also where did Madigan play for most of Amlin and big games in Pro 12 that year too?

Assuming he played 10 during the international breaks, Johnny Sexton's injury break and games where Sexton was rested one could assume significantly more than 50% of the pro 12 games add this to the fact that he was top points scorer but didn't take place kicks while Johnny was playing a few more games can be added on to that estimate, he was also brought into the Ireland set up as a 10 but that was probably because he looked so good at fullback. He didn't start the 1/2 finals or finals at 10 but that was due to injuries to D'Arcy and O'Malley both Sexton and O'Driscoll wrote in their books that they didn't think they'd start before Biarittz.


1. International debut vs France 2013, substitute at 15 iirc, then 12 vs Italy. Since then he has only played 10 in green and has played full tests vs Canada, USA and Georgia, not the highest calibre opponents but he played well and the side got three wins one against a tricky USA side. Add 8 cameos off the bench with wins vs South Africa and France and influential ones vs Argentina and Australia he has done just about as well as anyone could ask being behind Sexton, never looked out of his depth or uncomfortable at international level, which to me would be the definition of an international class player.

2. Well Dave is a six nations champion and was significantly more effective in the team that Simon "sure we'll give the Aussies a chance for the craic" Zebo who you were calling for could have been. As for Jordi, it's not as obvious because of injury but after taking two or so games getting match fitness he was probably the most impressive Leinster player this month showing more aspects and class to his game
than Tommy O'Donnell, who I rate very highly, ever really has. This paragraph makes it look like a Leinster v Munster ******* contest and that isn't what it is, it's just unfortunate that these three happened to fall that way. I'm not one to big up Leinster players furiously, look at D'Arcy for example I've been very critical of him over the years at times, same with Reddan, McCarthy and Toner who were picked ahead of players from other provinces when I thought they shouldn't have been

3. It hasn't really, it's just an underrated aspect of his game from back in the day when he was being compared to Sexton, as common a misconception as when Earls was said to be a bad player just because he was a bad 13 under Kidney. Most of Leinster's games in the last two months barring Wasps show his calibre of kicking really, kicks that aren't sent over dead ball but deep into the opponents are generally Madigan's and not Gopperth's.

4. Your inside sources which have allowed you to have an educated guess of next week's starting 15 had led me to believe that the focus was firmly on Italy. I'd be surprised if that team trained with Schmidt in charge once.

5. You've answered that yourself. If your best is average you're out of form in my opinion.

6. Answered in the opening paragraph and number 3. Gopperth is ahead of Madigan because he communicates with the team better and brings the centres into the game better and is helped by the fact that in his run of horrible form Madigan still wasn't given two games in a row in the 10 shirt.

I haven't said he only turns up for Schmidt but that he plays better under Schmidt. Schmidt knows how to get the best out of him while still allowing him to get the best out of the players around him, O'Connor's simplistic rugby doesn't do that but now that Leinster are playing good stuff I really want to see Madigan and Reid because I think we could see the Madigan of old back under those circumstances.

On your last point, I agree! Saying Madigan is a world class 10 contains as much bull**** as saying I said Madigan is a World class 10.

 

[big ginger 8]

What I did say however was that Madigan is a different and better player under Schmidt, he was pushing an on form Sexton for a starting spot in Schmidt's last year with Leinster

He was in your hole. He was playing well in a very strong Leinster team against teams which were a lot poorer. Sexton was completly safe.

I've read some of this argument but it's very long and it's a Sunday so I haven't read all of it.

I think it's a bit of a pointless argument tbh. If either Madigan or Keatley have to start a game against top opposition we're up **** creek without a paddle. I think Schmidt will pick Madigan but it really is flip a coing for me.

I think the more interesting debate is who'll be in the centres. A lot of us are presuming Fitz and Henshaw. I think the Wolfhounds selection may have killed that and it'll be Henshaw and Payne again. With HATTRICK HERO Cave not involved again to the annoyance of Ulstermen everywhere, especially Jim Neilly. Although he has scored more hattricks than Zebo lately so clearly he should start on the wing.

 

[munstermuffin]

Assuming he played 10 during the international breaks, Johnny Sexton's injury break and games where Sexton was rested one could assume significantly more than 50% of the pro 12 games add this to the fact that he was top points scorer but didn't take place kicks while Johnny was playing a few more games can be added on to that estimate, he was also brought into the Ireland set up as a 10 but that was probably because he looked so good at fullback. He didn't start the 1/2 finals or finals at 10 but that was due to injuries to D'Arcy and O'Malley both Sexton and O'Driscoll wrote in their books that they didn't think they'd start before Biarittz.


1. International debut vs France 2013, substitute at 15 iirc, then 12 vs Italy. Since then he has only played 10 in green and has played full tests vs Canada, USA and Georgia, not the highest calibre opponents but he played well and the side got three wins one against a tricky USA side. Add 8 cameos off the bench with wins vs South Africa and France and influential ones vs Argentina and Australia he has done just about as well as anyone could ask being behind Sexton, never looked out of his depth or uncomfortable at international level, which to me would be the definition of an international class player.

2. Well Dave is a six nations champion and was significantly more effective in the team that Simon "sure we'll give the Aussies a chance for the craic" Zebo who you were calling for could have been. As for Jordi, it's not as obvious because of injury but after taking two or so games getting match fitness he was probably the most impressive Leinster player this month showing more aspects and class to his game
than Tommy O'Donnell, who I rate very highly, ever really has. This paragraph makes it look like a Leinster v Munster ******* contest and that isn't what it is, it's just unfortunate that these three happened to fall that way. I'm not one to big up Leinster players furiously, look at D'Arcy for example I've been very critical of him over the years at times, same with Reddan, McCarthy and Toner who were picked ahead of players from other provinces when I thought they shouldn't have been

3. It hasn't really, it's just an underrated aspect of his game from back in the day when he was being compared to Sexton, as common a misconception as when Earls was said to be a bad player just because he was a bad 13 under Kidney. Most of Leinster's games in the last two months barring Wasps show his calibre of kicking really, kicks that aren't sent over dead ball but deep into the opponents are generally Madigan's and not Gopperth's.

4. Your inside sources which have allowed you to have an educated guess of next week's starting 15 had led me to believe that the focus was firmly on Italy. I'd be surprised if that team trained with Schmidt in charge once.

5. You've answered that yourself. If your best is average you're out of form in my opinion.

6. Answered in the opening paragraph and number 3. Gopperth is ahead of Madigan because he communicates with the team better and brings the centres into the game better and is helped by the fact that in his run of horrible form Madigan still wasn't given two games in a row in the 10 shirt.

I haven't said he only turns up for Schmidt but that he plays better under Schmidt. Schmidt knows how to get the best out of him while still allowing him to get the best out of the players around him, O'Connor's simplistic rugby doesn't do that but now that Leinster are playing good stuff I really want to see Madigan and Reid because I think we could see the Madigan of old back under those circumstances.

On your last point, I agree! Saying Madigan is a world class 10 contains as much bull**** as saying I said Madigan is a World class 10.

Ok I'll start with it.

1. I'll ask again WHERE has he proven to be an international starting 10. Yes he's done well in cameos off bench which I've blatantly noted was his strong point. But again I asked as a starter. Also, and I don't mean this directed at Madigan, just because you have caps doesn't mean you are international class.

2. I won't get in to it regards Murphy and Kearney but where's the evidence had Zebo and TOD been there that anything would be different?
You said my criticism was clearly wrong and unjust and proven wrong.
How as I had fair points, right or wrong they were valid for debate.
So again what exactly was clear and unjust. Also would you say Keith Earls and Geordan Murphy were way better than Shane Horgan? Or in 09 O'Leary was way better than Reddan as they all had Grand Slams. And that's what your basing your thoughts on yes.

3. Kicking hasn't been great from Madigan in last few games. Every fan, journalist, pundit and analyst seem to agree so maybe you can show examples. As I said I'm not saying he can't kick just its not a strength of his by long shot. His goal kicking is but not his game management or tactical kicking. Hence him always being called a maverick and off the cuff player. Which is why he in international and world class off the bench.

4. Yes Schmidt had most of first XV training with eyes on Italy even on Friday they put in a shift but that still doesn't answer question. So I'm sure you can give me better here.

5. But Madigan is below average. So is Average now better than less than average now. Yes so as I said Keatley getting nod doesn't mean he's on form more Madigan isn't.

6. Surely you are after answering everything I'm saying in that. What good is a 10 starting when he's not communicating with team and bringing centres in to it. Regardless of how many games Madigan has played at 10 fact is it is what it is now. And as you say Schmidt knows what to do to get a performance out of him. If he selects him it's a tight call either way. But will Schmidt make that gamble?

I obviously meant international class not world class