Melbourne Rebels v British and Irish Lions (25/06/13)

[potemkin]

First Post!

As Richie Gray and Ian Evans both played 80 today think they might cover second row with Tom Croft?

 

[SelimNiai]

First Post!

As Richie Gray and Ian Evans both played 80 today think they might cover second row with Tom Croft?

Welcome

Its an option, Evans is more in the POC mold and Gray is like Croft. I think though they might use Croft as utility forward sub and have a SOB/Faletau to cover back row.

 

[SuperEagle]

I only saw the second half of this match. To me, it seems like Tuilagi has been "shackled" on this tour. For Leicester, he plays very much on the front foot - he's the "go to" player for getting up to and over the gain line, sucking in defenders and creating space. The lions aren't using him like this at all. In today's game, this role was taken by Faletau. This is due to the "system" that WG is employing on tour and it's not using Tuilagi to the best of his ability. Manu is playing well, playing the best he can with WG's system, but it's not giving him much opportunity to show what he can do. Every time he's got the ball this tour his first movement has been to look for runners on his shoulder, rather than to run at space. This means we won't see Tuilagi at his wrecking-ball best this tour. Being a "team player" will cost Manu a test position, I fear.

 

[j'nuh]

This is one thing that frustrates me: he spends lots of time offering extra protection at rucks, when I'd like to see him ready to receive the ball.

I think Tuilagi has done very well - his willingness to pass in my opinion shows that he respects the ability of the guys around him - where in an England shirt he's usually the main attraction. I'd actually like to see him take contact more often at 12 - we'd certainly see him make more line breaks that way.

tbf, it's pretty standard for 12s to pass more than 13s. More chances in the 13 channel given the space, and more options to pass to.

 

[SuperEagle]

Indeed.

It looked like Gatland had his squad for the weekend picked before the players started the warmup today. Which to me is poor form from Gatland.

Faletau was immense throughout. SOB good in parts, forcing it a bit in others.

It is unfortunate for Faletau that Heaslip was probably our best backrower on Sat, otherwise he would almost certainly start. As it is, he could definitely do a great job off the bench.

I personally would go with a 6.O'Brien, 7.Warburton 8.Heaslip combo, with Faletau on the bench for Sat. It means you've decent flexibility in cover across the back row with 6 (O'Brien and Faletau) 7 (Warburton and O'Brien) and 8 (Heaslip, Faletau and O'Brien).

It also means every one of your backrowers is effective around rucks, mauls and the breakdown. With the back-3 the Lions have, you don't need a wannabe winger out there getting in the road - that body would be better served ensuring quicker supply of ball to that back-3.

Lots of people are overly obsessed with "cover" when talking about the bench. Cover is important when considering what to do if the players get injured, but you can't let the prospect of injury be the only factor in selecting your subs.

International rugby players (with the possible exception of the front row) are able to play 80 mins. The role of the players on the bench is to be able to change the game and offer something different if what the starters is doing is not working. (Think about how England used Mike Catt/Mike Tindall in the 2003 RWC or how NZ used Sonny Bill Williams/Conrad Smith in the 2011 RWC).

Thinking about the Lions' backrow with this in mind, it makes perfect sense for WG to start with Croft and have Lydiate on the bench (or vice-versa) because they offer different qualities to the team. It makes much less sense to go with Lydiate and have O'Brien on the bench as they are much more similar players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Welcome

Its an option, Evans is more in the POC mold and Gray is like Croft. I think though they might use Croft as utility forward sub and have a SOB/Faletau to cover back row.

Yeah, I think the same.
Not too sure on it, though. In theory Croft could do 10/15/20mins in the donkey row and it'd be fine, bit imagine if AWJ took a knee to the temple 50seconds in. I'd rather an actual lock was about to cover.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[SelimNiai]

Yeah, I think the same.
Not too sure on it, though. In theory Croft could do 10/15/20mins in the donkey row and it'd be fine, bit imagine if AWJ took a knee to the temple 50seconds in. I'd rather an actual lock was about to cover.

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Yep, at risk of sounding like Sigesige, would be easier if the whole squad to be on the bench and pick from there.

But I'm not him, luckily

 

[Galbraith]

Did anyone else see Barritt's deftly weighted kick that nearly set up a try? Or was it just my eyes deceiving me

 

[dullonien]

I only saw the second half of this match. To me, it seems like Tuilagi has been "shackled" on this tour. For Leicester, he plays very much on the front foot - he's the "go to" player for getting up to and over the gain line, sucking in defenders and creating space. The lions aren't using him like this at all. In today's game, this role was taken by Faletau. This is due to the "system" that WG is employing on tour and it's not using Tuilagi to the best of his ability. Manu is playing well, playing the best he can with WG's system, but it's not giving him much opportunity to show what he can do. Every time he's got the ball this tour his first movement has been to look for runners on his shoulder, rather than to run at space. This means we won't see Tuilagi at his wrecking-ball best this tour. Being a "team player" will cost Manu a test position, I fear.

He should work well within Gatlands systems considering Roberts is a mainstay in the Welsh setup. What's held Tuilagi back this tour is his injury. It just hasn't allowed him to develop any real fluidity with those around him, or with the attacking system the Lions are using.

 

[Amiga500]

It makes much less sense to go with Lydiate and have O'Brien on the bench as they are much more similar players.

:huh:

Have you ever actually watched the two play?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Did anyone else see Barritt's deftly weighted kick that nearly set up a try? Or was it just my eyes deceiving me

Just seen him put in a quality wide skip-pass too (watching it for the first time now).
Barritts all round game is vastly underrated, partly due to being overshadowed by his defensive reputation and partly due to implemented gameplans he's involved in - Sarries, for the most part, like him to tackle and do not much else and England want him to do what he does for sarries.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Peat]

I can't see Croft being used as second row cover. We've seen the scrum go into reverse for not having a suitable TH lock replacement once already and they're clearly paranoid about the lineout. If you're paranoid about the lineout, you keep a proper lineout lock on the bench. I'd have Evans on the bench. Half expecting to see O'Brien on the bench in case there's an issue about getting on the front foot again. Would still take Faletau instead.

I'm also expecting Bowe, simply because he's less mistake prone than Cuthbert. Something like this, you keep things tight if you can.

 

[SuperEagle]

:huh:

Have you ever actually watched the two play?

Yes. I meant they are comparitively more similar to each other than either of them are to Croft

 

[monkeypigeon]

Time for Monkeypigeon to throw the monkey amongst the pigeons....or more likely be ignored. I'll make a few points about various things.

1. I don't think Barnes has an English player bias. He just prefers certain players and those are more likely to be English. Ben Youngs was the man of the match before he came near the pitch, Sean O'Brien was of course perfect in every way too. And lets not even start on the perfection that is Farrell. If you're a lock you just get ignored and Conor Murray only gets commentated on when he fecks up. So when he turned the ball over/won a penalty for the lions - not a mention. A lovely soft pass to Grant who then drops the ball....well, that was all Murray's fault - where's Youngs?

2. Murray was quite good. His passing was neat, he didn't flap around at the ruck like he has done in the past and his kicking was good as per usual, made at least one solo turnover and did a great job to score his try. He did make a couple of errors (like kicking the ball dead too early at the end of the half and going on his own twice when he shouldn't have). That said Youngs was better.

3. O'Briwn was good, but not great. Forced it. I'm on the Faletau brigade - for the bench though, not to start. Thought he had a great game, but Heaslip was good on Saturday against better opposition.

4. Gray and Evans were both impressive. I think Gray will be on the bench, with Parling starting. Gray gets the nod because he's a Scot, and they need that political selection so they can drop...

5. ...Maitland. He was good today, but I feel (my Munster bias accepted) that Zebo was better today. Yeah, he jinks aboout a much, but so did the precious Shane Williams who annoyed the bejsus out of me on the last Lions tour. I think Cuthbert will keep his place, with Bowe on the bench, but wouldn't be surprised if it was the other way round.

5. Would like to see Tualagi on the bench...but I think it'll be Bowe. He can cover 11,13 - 15. Sexton can cover 12. That said, I agree with whoever up there said that we're talking too much about cover and not enough about impact. That said - Lions tour 2009, Second Test. More cover would have been nice. 6.

Did someone just say that Lydiate and O'Brien are similar players?!


Edit: I have no idea where all the formatting went, but I am well peeved.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

6. Did someone just say that Lydiate and O'Brien are similar players?!

Lydiate is to Sean O'Brien what Kane is to the Big Show...very different beasts! Right, that's my wrestling knowledge exhausted.

The problem is that all three of our scrum halves make questionable decisions when under pressure (or when not under pressure, actually) - so its hard to judge them when playing mid week games. I don't think Murray was quite clinical enough in seeing the gaps out there..

 

[TRF_heineken]

Lydiate is to Sean O'Brien what Kane is to the Big Show...very different beasts! Right, that's my wrestling knowledge exhausted.

The problem is that all three of our scrum halves make questionable decisions when under pressure (or when not under pressure, actually) - so its hard to judge them when playing mid week games. I don't think Murray was quite clinical enough in seeing the gaps out there..

You know that is a very poor comparison. Both Kane and Big Show are tall. Both use the power game. And Both uses the Chokeslam as their finisher. Its like comparing apples with apples...

 

[Dougydeluxe]

Ummm....yes.

That could be one of the dumbest things I have ever said. In my defence I was up till 4.30am watching the hockey.

Hockey... are you a closeted Canadian? It was also the perfect ending, gave Boston some payback for the Leafs

 

[ZeFrenchy]

You know that is a very poor comparison. Both Kane and Big Show are tall. Both use the power game. And Both uses the Chokeslam as their finisher. Its like comparing apples with apples...

That's very wrong, Kane can get low and even wrestle on the ground if needed. The Big Show has longer range and uses his weight a lot more. Even his version of the chokeslam is very different, he goes to ground with the opponent.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That's very wrong, Kane can get low and even wrestle on the ground if needed. The Big Show has longer range and uses his weight a lot more. Even his version of the chokeslam is very different, he goes to ground with the opponent.

Exactly... They may have some traits in common, but you wouldn't describe them as similar wrestlers

 

[Joseph14]

Time for Monkeypigeon to throw the monkey amongst the pigeons....or more likely be ignored. I'll make a few points about various things. 1. I don't think Barnes has an English player bias. He just prefers certain players and those are more likely to be English. Ben Youngs was the man of the match before he came near the pitch, Sean O'Brien was of course perfect in every way too. And lets not even start on the perfection that is Farrell. If you're a lock you just get ignored and Conor Murray only gets commentated on when he fecks up. So when he turned the ball over/won a penalty for the lions - not a mention. A lovely soft pass to Grant who then drops the ball....well, that was all Murray's fault - where's Youngs? 2. Murray was quite good. His passing was neat, he didn't flap around at the ruck like he has done in the past and his kicking was good as per usual, made at least one solo turnover and did a great job to score his try. He did make a couple of errors (like kicking the ball dead too early at the end of the half and going on his own twice when he shouldn't have). That said Youngs was better. 3. O'Briwn was good, but not great. Forced it. I'm on the Faletau brigade - for the bench though, not to start. Thought he had a great game, but Heaslip was good on Saturday against better opposition. 4. Gray and Evans were both impressive. I think Gray will be on the bench, with Parling starting. Gray gets the nod because he's a Scot, and they need that political selection so they can drop... 5. ...Maitland. He was good today, but I feel (my Munster bias accepted) that Zebo was better today. Yeah, he jinks aboout a much, but so did the precious Shane Williams who annoyed the bejsus out of me on the last Lions tour. I think Cuthbert will keep his place, with Bowe on the bench, but wouldn't be surprised if it was the other way round. 5. Would like to see Tualagi on the bench...but I think it'll be Bowe. He can cover 11,13 - 15. Sexton can cover 12. That said, I agree with whoever up there said that we're talking too much about cover and not enough about impact. That said - Lions tour 2009, Second Test. More cover would have been nice. 6. Did someone just say that Lydiate and O'Brien are similar players?!


Edit: I have no idea where all the formatting went, but I am well peeved.

If you are a lock not named Courtney Lawes, you get ignored! Another who Barnes has a hard on for