Maybe this is why I don't get the NH club rugby

[dasNdanger]

Or is because most of them are from Tonga....oh dear hope thats not started anything.

I read that as 'or because most of them are in Togas'...


I think I need another cup of coffee.


das

 

[ratsapprentice]

Doubt it's anything to do with Christianity... most Islanders are devout Christians as far as I can make out.

 

[dasNdanger]

Doubt it's anything to do with Christianity... most Islanders are devout Christians as far as I can make out.

I was wondering only because there seems a lot of kiwis (that I've talked to) who hate the anthem. I can't understand why because it's really beautiful. So I thought maybe it was because it's almost like a hymn instead of an anthem, though some have said it's because it's hard to sing, especially drunk..."God of Nations smell my feet"... :lol:



das

 

[FrenchFan]

This is again a misconception.

You can't compare the French top 14 with the Super Rugby tournament. Super Rugby should be compared with the Heineken Cup. The French top 14 should be compared to NZ's ITM cup and to SA's Currie Cup. The Super Rugby uses the franchise system where provincial unions are combined to make up a team. I can go into the whole explanation of the combination of the teams, but I know you know how it has been compiled.

Teams in the French top 14 must be compared with ITM Cup teams like Wellington, Auckland and North Harbor and the Currie Cup teams like the Western Province, Griquas and Blue Bulls.

This being said, I do think some of the french top teams will overpower the SH union sides. Mainly because of the talented pool of players they have and that the Currie Cup is being used to get the young players into the senior rugby mix. There are big differences in the setup of the SH and NH domestic leagues. And as long as the NH keeps on buying the top SH players big amounts of money, the difference will just remain as it is.

The other thing regarding this topic is the media. And how they report on the matches. In SA, because we don't get to see all the games up north, we mostly rely on the reports through the Media. And then in SA's case they always try to mention the SA based players. We will get articles like "Francois Louw stars in Bath win", "Bakkies, Toulon's never-ending engine", "Ruan Pienaar's boot saves Ulster"...

You will have to excuse us if we seem cocky, and don't agree with some of the posts in this thread, I for one think that with our top players always moving north, because of our poor currency, the more players that go, the bigger the gap will become between the current top 2 teams and the rest of the nations. For us, our National team is the epitome of our beloved sport. It's the highest honour to get in your rugby career. You wear your Springbok/All Black jersey with pride and you sing your national anthem with emotion.

Some of the NH posters seem to see it differently, and that club rugby is the be-all and end-all of rugby. fine, fair enough, but what would a fan do if his club team eventually runs out of money, or gets amalgamated with another team or just ceases to exist? Where will your loyalty go to then?? You won't stop watching rugby in totality if that happens, you will get another team and start supporting them just as you would have your previous team. But National sides remain. Unless of course there is some sort of International incident and the country breaks-up or some other strange phenomenon...

If clubs didnt exist there wouldnt be a national side. Where would they get the players from?
In my experience, great rugby clubs dont cease to exist, they disappear off the radar by leaving the elite. In the 50's and 60's Lourdes was the dominant force in domestic league, today they are in Federale but the club the fans are still there. True fans still support their club even if it falls into a sporting abyss.
They have also tried before to introduce regional rugby teams, like some franchises, it has n-e-v-e-r worked here. Club culture is too strong. I remember watching one regional teams take on a touring AB team with Lomu. A combined force of say Toulouse - Castres - Bordeau looks great on paper, in practice, nobody wants it.
There is an interestting situation in the basque country where the 2 clubs (Biarritz, Bayonne) are bottom of the top 14. Biarritz will be relegated barring a miracle. There is talk that they may merge. I can't see it happening in sporting terms because they hate each other. But the economics of the game and the current recession might dictate otherwise. So we could have a scenario of 2 clubs disappareing and reappear into one. We will see.
I am a fan of my own national team, french players and fans alike sing their anthem with pride. Its not like passion is in short supply here...But you can't put the national side priorities ahead of the clubs.The club culture is too strong.
When the national team underperforms, the blame must first go to the federation and national coach because they are officialy responsaible for the national team, NOT the clubs. The suits at the Federation appoint the national coach, they dictate all about the national side yet they will never take responsibility and always blame others. Its their culture. They lynched Lievremont after appointing him in the job and will keep PSA in the job, whatever the results on the pitch and consequences to the national team. They're dangerous.
Professional clubs make people more accountable. Its a culture clash when these 2 meet. And the divide btw clubs and Federation is getting wider. PSA would have been sacked last year had his team finished bottom of the Top14. If he fails this season again, he will stay as a national coach until next WC in 2015. Thats whats wrong with the management of the national team.

 

[FrenchFan]

That's always a possibility. I just had a look on wikipedia at Castres' squad (Castres were in the same Heineken Cup pool as Leinster who are the team I support). Even allowing for the fact that wikipedia isn't always accurate, 18 out of the 38 man squad are from outside France. I believe that a more condensed calendar with fewer games would dramatically reduce this reliance on foreign players. There'd be less quantity and more proven quality.

The Top 14 used to be a TOP 16 now they're talking about a Top 12 so they're moving in the right direction of less games and concentrating the elite. Wont happen overnight though these changes come slowly

 

[Big Ewis]

The Top 14 used to be a TOP 16 now they're talking about a Top 12 so they're moving in the right direction of less games and concentrating the elite. Wont happen overnight though these changes come slowly

well they can't do a Top 13 of course. That's even more bad luck to come, and evil monsters and ghouls and goblins. But a Top 12 sounds absolutely gorgeous...and limiting the internationals just a tad more while they're at it, and I'm lying on a long chair sippin on some girly cocktail with cheap black shades on.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If clubs didnt exist there wouldnt be a national side. Where would they get the players from?

Actually there would still be a national side. There are many other ways to compile a national team, even without the existance of a club. Universities for instance can have teams and those players can be picked for national duty. Another Example could be like in South Africa, nearly every major town has a team compiled by the staff of the Police force. They don't belong to a club, they are employed police officers, and they form part of the local leagues in SA. There are plenty of ways to get players to represent your national team. The thing is just that these players might not be proffessional sports stars, and may get slaughtered against more proffessional opposition. Point is, there can still be a National team without any clubs...

In my experience, great rugby clubs dont cease to exist, they disappear off the radar by leaving the elite. In the 50's and 60's Lourdes was the dominant force in domestic league, today they are in Federale but the club the fans are still there. True fans still support their club even if it falls into a sporting abyss.
They have also tried before to introduce regional rugby teams, like some franchises, it has n-e-v-e-r worked here. Club culture is too strong. I remember watching one regional teams take on a touring AB team with Lomu. A combined force of say Toulouse - Castres - Bordeau looks great on paper, in practice, nobody wants it.
There is an interestting situation in the basque country where the 2 clubs (Biarritz, Bayonne) are bottom of the top 14. Biarritz will be relegated barring a miracle. There is talk that they may merge. I can't see it happening in sporting terms because they hate each other. But the economics of the game and the current recession. So we could have a scenario of 2 clubs disappareing and reappear into one might dictate otherwise. We will see.

This is just one example that I made, and I know about the Bay-a-ritz situation. This is actually case in point.

I am a fan of my own national team, french players and fans alike sing their anthem with pride. Its not like passion is in short supply here...But you can't put the national side priorities ahead of the clubs.The club culture is too strong.
When the national team underperforms, the blame must first go to the federation and national coach because they are officialy responsaible for the national team, NOT the clubs. The suits at the Federation appoint the national coach, they dictate all about the national side yet they will never take responsibility and always blame others. Its their culture. They lynched Lievremont after appointing him in the job and will keep PSA in the job, whatever the results on the pitch and consequences to the national team. They're dangerous.
Professional clubs make people more accountable.

And then you wonder why France sometimes underperforms at international level?? it's the bold part in particular that makes me shrivel. Springbok and All Blacks are the main priority in SA and NZ. even with their different contracting ways, they still make the national team the main priority. that's why players like Dan Carter and Richie Mccaw gets a sabbatical from club/franchise rugby. So that they as the player can prolong their career (always a good investment) and to be able to represent the national team as much as possible. When the national team underperforms, they will always blame the national coach and management, I agree with you there, but remember, the national coach can only work with what he has available. If clubs don't release certain players for national duty, then the national coach doesn't have a choice but to pick someone else, usually not as good as his first choice. With the amount of club games in the year, there are also more and more players getting injuries, which also makes selection difficult for the national coach.

Its a culture clash when these 2 meet. And the divide btw clubs and Federation is getting wider. PSA would have been sacked last year had his team finished bottom of the Top14. If he fails this season again, he will stay as a national coach until next WC in 2015. Thats whats wrong with the management of the national team.

It's not supposed to be a culture clash. there shouldn't be a divide. There must actually be a closeness between the national team and the clubs. You scratch my back, I scratch yours, kind of situation. By clashing, there will inevitably be a divide, and I can't see that on the long haul that it can be beneficial for either group...

 

[smartcooky]

Or is because most of them are from Tonga....oh dear hope thats not started anything.

And I suppose the English cricket team sings Die Stem?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

And I suppose the English cricket team sings Die Stem?

Eina!

 

[smartcooky]

Eina!

Ek is jammer my vriend!!

 

[St George]

And I suppose the English cricket team sings Die Stem?

I dont know why they would, seeing as there was only one half-South African in the England team that sang an anthem last:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExcLPADxCEk

Maybe you mistook this for the Test team, which doesnt sing any anthem.


But hey....Geen bekommernisse .... Ons aanvaar slegs Engels Bokke nie afrikanners .... hulle is die mense wat sing in Engels aan die einde van die Suid-Afrikaanse volkslied.


Although not sure why you had to use Cricket as the yardstick, when surely our Rugby team with South Sea islanders would have been a direct comparison.....or is it because quite clearly our overseas born players have GSTQ at heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60slMv2REqY

 

[Draggs]

Ok Saffas, do these lads know Afrikaans or are they using google translate?

 

[St George]

Ok Saffas, do these lads know Afrikaans or are they using google translate?

Busted.... Probably ordered a Bush-Kill Burger with Fries.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I was really impressed with 'bekommernisse'. That was also the give-away as no-one under 75 uses the word anymore.

And, erm, no Afrikaanse 'Bokke'? Hendre Fourie and Mouritz Botha are as Afrikaans as pap en wors met tamatie smoor. Not that I have a problem mind you.

 

[St George]

I was really impressed with 'bekommernisse'. That was also the give-away as no-one under 75 uses the word anymore.

And, erm, no Afrikaanse 'Bokke'? Hendre Fourie and Mouritz Botha are as Afrikaans as pap en wors met tamatie smoor. Not that I have a problem mind you.

PMSL. When i was a kid, i tended to get illnesses that were associated with older people, so its no surprise that i have replicated the older generation of Afrikaner.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

PMSL. When i was a kid, i tended to get illnesses that were associated with older people, so its no surprise that i have replicated the older generation of Afrikaner.

LOL. On the subject of replicating the elderly, I hope that 'PMS(L)' wasn't used in a lietral sense?

 

[TRF_heineken]

I was really impressed with 'bekommernisse'. That was also the give-away as no-one under 75 uses the word anymore.

And, erm, no Afrikaanse 'Bokke'? Hendre Fourie and Mouritz Botha are as Afrikaans as pap en wors met tamatie smoor. Not that I have a problem mind you.

Are you calling me old?? I use that term a lot actually!! and I'm just 28 now!!

Anyways, I think the English shouldn't start opening the can of worms of the South Sea Islanders playing for NZ debacle, this has been discussed so many times before on this forum that it really isn't necessary.

And us Saffas would then just go and throw names to the poms like: Kevin Pietersen, Jonathan Trott, Craig Kieswetter, Andrew Strauss, Brad Barritt, Mouritz Botha, Hendre Fourie etc...

Then they will go and take Zimbabweans who are in the Bok team: Beast Mtawarira.

then everybody argues

then a mod steps in

then it settles down (a bit)

Then some Irish guy makes a comment

Everyone laughs

Thread derailed

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Are you calling me old?? I use that term a lot actually!! and I'm just 28 now!!

Anyways, I think the English shouldn't start opening the can of worms of the South Sea Islanders playing for NZ debacle, this has been discussed so many times before on this forum that it really isn't necessary.

And us Saffas would then just go and throw names to the poms like: Kevin Pietersen, Jonathan Trott, Craig Kieswetter, Andrew Strauss, Brad Barritt, Mouritz Botha, Hendre Fourie etc...

Then they will go and take Zimbabweans who are in the Bok team: Beast Mtawarira.

then everybody argues

then a mod steps in

then it settles down (a bit)

Then some Irish guy makes a comment

Everyone laughs

Thread derailed

That sounds about right and, ja, ek noem jou 'n toppie met al jou bekommernisse!

 

[McTallshort]

And I suppose the English cricket team sings Die Stem?

Knew you would bite...

 

[FrenchFan]

Actually there would still be a national side. There are many other ways to compile a national team, even without the existance of a club. Universities for instance can have teams and those players can be picked for national duty. Another Example could be like in South Africa, nearly every major town has a team compiled by the staff of the Police force. They don't belong to a club, they are employed police officers, and they form part of the local leagues in SA. There are plenty of ways to get players to represent your national team. The thing is just that these players might not be proffessional sports stars, and may get slaughtered against more proffessional opposition. Point is, there can still be a National team without any clubs...

>>yes we have army teams as well but they are just representing the army, they're not a national side as such. I cant see how this would work here, in practice it wouldn't be possible at a prof level: you wouldn't get the players.



This is just one example that I made, and I know about the Bay-a-ritz situation. This is actually case in point.



And then you wonder why France sometimes underperforms at international level?? it's the bold part in particular that makes me shrivel. Springbok and All Blacks are the main priority in SA and NZ. even with their different contracting ways, they still make the national team the main priority. that's why players like Dan Carter and Richie Mccaw gets a sabbatical from club/franchise rugby. So that they as the player can prolong their career (always a good investment) and to be able to represent the national team as much as possible. When the national team underperforms, they will always blame the national coach and management, I agree with you there, but remember, the national coach can only work with what he has available. If clubs don't release certain players for national duty, then the national coach doesn't have a choice but to pick someone else, usually not as good as his first choice. With the amount of club games in the year, there are also more and more players getting injuries, which also makes selection difficult for the national coach.

>>it is what it is. Im only looking at the situation in domestic rugby. This is why the system is different from one country to another and btw SH vs NH. You can't transpose the SH system into the NH. Changes are slow to operate in rugby here. Maybe the french rugby league will go the way of the English soccer league. Strong clubs, great domestic competition, average national side. Who knows?

It's not supposed to be a culture clash. there shouldn't be a divide. There must actually be a closeness between the national team and the clubs. You scratch my back, I scratch yours, kind of situation. By clashing, there will inevitably be a divide, and I can't see that on the long haul that it can be beneficial for either group...

>>scratch my back?!...in a dream world maybe, its more like I kick your arse then lets see if you can kick mine ;-))