Maybe this is why I don't get the NH club rugby

[Peat]

>>well other nations have won it as many times as NZ. SA 2 Aus 2. There's 6 nations (add Eng Wales) and maybe 7 with Fra that can also win it. Fra for all their shytness made the final 3 times. So its not four. You are not very good with numbers arent you.

Or maybe he was referring to the fact that only NZ, SA, Australia and England have ever won it.

 

[nickdnz]

>>its the insular Kiwi mentality. They think because they have the AB everything should run like NZ. Sheep farmers think that way.

>>well other nations have won it as many times as NZ. SA 2 Aus 2. There's 6 nations (add Eng Wales) and maybe 7 with Fra that can also win it. Fra for all their shytness made the final 3 times. So its not four. You are not very good with numbers arent you.

Your insight into New Zealanders is remarkable, thank you. Yes, we're sheep farmers - now I understand. We think this way because we farm sheep and so can't know any better.

Forgive smartcookie for his misunderstanding of numbers - he said he wants to see more than four teams winning it. There is clearly far more than that which have won it! New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and England. I'm not sure how many that is as I'm a New Zealander, and must process everything in terms of sheep, so counting makes me very sleepy. I missed the tournament that Wales and France won - I seem to remember them failing at various points in all seven tournaments.

 

[Big Ewis]

aaaaah....*stretches arms while yawning*. What a beautiful thread.
The atmosphere is just....peachy.

 

[psychic duck]

Your insight ino New Zealanders is remarkable, thank you. Yes, we're sheep farmers - now I understand. We think this way because we farm sheep and so can't know any better.

Forgive smartcookie for his misunderstanding of numbers - he said he wants to see more than four teams winning it. There is clearly far more than that which have won it! New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and England. I'm not sure how many that is as I'm a New Zealander, and must process everything in terms of sheep, so counting makes me very sleepy. I missed the tournament that Wales and France won - I seem to remember them failing at various points in all seven tournaments.

There's no way Wales can win a World Cup anyway, 2011 was the best chance there will be for some time. Only SANZAR, England and France have ever had a chance of winning it. Just getting to the semi final is a good result for the rest.

 

[Maverick1987]

OK, take the elite game as a yardstick. France has 30 fully professional teams. How did they go in the Six Nations last year... err last wasn't it?

When was the last time France finished last in the 6N? - Never

When was the last time France finished last in the 5N? (before the introduction of the whipping boys) - 1999 (Scotland won it!)

And before that? - 1969!

FFS, how could a country with 30 fully professional rugby teams, more than any other country in Europe, not be able to find just 22 players good enough to avoid the wooden spoon?

I'll bet the FFR could answer that!!

I firmly believe the blame like with PSA .

He played one of the best centres in the world on the wing for gods sake . They have looked better since he got rid of michalak and started playing people in position . They pushed the ABs and SA close and generally look to be more positive . I genuinely think they will get a grand slam this year

 

[Big Ewis]

this is getting redundant from my part, but it doesn't matter the guys you have on paper. This isn't tennis, or Golf. It's Rugby, a team sport. If the guys don't mesh well, because they don't get enough time together, they're obviously terribly hindered de facto. Add to that some dubious choices and game plans from the coach, some tired players who play about 40 games a season, a little bit of misfortune in specific games and you've got the Wooden Spoon.
No mystery at all...

 

[smartcooky]

Your insight into New Zealanders is remarkable, thank you. Yes, we're sheep farmers - now I understand. We think this way because we farm sheep and so can't know any better.

Forgive smartcookie for his misunderstanding of numbers - he said he wants to see more than four teams winning it. There is clearly far more than that which have won it! New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and England. I'm not sure how many that is as I'm a New Zealander, and must process everything in terms of sheep, so counting makes me very sleepy. I missed the tournament that Wales and France won - I seem to remember them failing at various points in all seven tournaments.

Is there a TRFies category for best poster at taking the p¡ss out of trolls?

If so, I nominate nickdnz, with his quoted post as supporting evidence...

Priceless!!

 

[TRF_heineken]

While this is true to an extent, France have 14 fully professional teams in their top tier. New Zealand and South Africa have just 5 teams each in their top competition (Super Rugby). Top 14 teams play between 26 and 29 domestic games per year plus 6 to 9 European games. Super Rugby teams play a fraction of that at 18 to 21 games. There aren't enough quality French rugby players to fill 14 team in such a brutal schedule. There's an argument that filling their squads with dross locals rather than better quality imports would have a detrimental effect on their international standing.

That they play too many games and have too many teams in their top tier is a whole other argument which has, in my opinion, a lot of merit to it. If they reduced both of these, the number of imports should drop and help their national team. Concentrate the talent rather than spread it out.

This is again a misconception.

You can't compare the French top 14 with the Super Rugby tournament. Super Rugby should be compared with the Heineken Cup. The French top 14 should be compared to NZ's ITM cup and to SA's Currie Cup. The Super Rugby uses the franchise system where provincial unions are combined to make up a team. I can go into the whole explanation of the combination of the teams, but I know you know how it has been compiled.

Teams in the French top 14 must be compared with ITM Cup teams like Wellington, Auckland and North Harbor and the Currie Cup teams like the Western Province, Griquas and Blue Bulls.

This being said, I do think some of the french top teams will overpower the SH union sides. Mainly because of the talented pool of players they have and that the Currie Cup is being used to get the young players into the senior rugby mix. There are big differences in the setup of the SH and NH domestic leagues. And as long as the NH keeps on buying the top SH players big amounts of money, the difference will just remain as it is.

The other thing regarding this topic is the media. And how they report on the matches. In SA, because we don't get to see all the games up north, we mostly rely on the reports through the Media. And then in SA's case they always try to mention the SA based players. We will get articles like "Francois Louw stars in Bath win", "Bakkies, Toulon's never-ending engine", "Ruan Pienaar's boot saves Ulster"...

You will have to excuse us if we seem cocky, and don't agree with some of the posts in this thread, I for one think that with our top players always moving north, because of our poor currency, the more players that go, the bigger the gap will become between the current top 2 teams and the rest of the nations. For us, our National team is the epitome of our beloved sport. It's the highest honour to get in your rugby career. You wear your Springbok/All Black jersey with pride and you sing your national anthem with emotion.

Some of the NH posters seem to see it differently, and that club rugby is the be-all and end-all of rugby. fine, fair enough, but what would a fan do if his club team eventually runs out of money, or gets amalgamated with another team or just ceases to exist? Where will your loyalty go to then?? You won't stop watching rugby in totality if that happens, you will get another team and start supporting them just as you would have your previous team. But National sides remain. Unless of course there is some sort of International incident and the country breaks-up or some other strange phenomenon...

 

[Peat]

Some of the NH posters seem to see it differently, and that club rugby is the be-all and end-all of rugby. fine, fair enough, but what would a fan do if his club team eventually runs out of money, or gets amalgamated with another team or just ceases to exist? Where will your loyalty go to then?? You won't stop watching rugby in totality if that happens, you will get another team and start supporting them just as you would have your previous team. But National sides remain. Unless of course there is some sort of International incident and the country breaks-up or some other strange phenomenon...

In fairness, rugby clubs are very stable things as a rule, and there are no shortage of rugby clubs older than most African/East European countries. But yes. It's not like the break-up of the country has to be the break-up of its team either mind.

 

[nickdnz]

You wear your Springbok/All Black jersey with pride and you sing your national anthem with emotion.

Unfortunately, the All Blacks tend to sing their national anthem as if they only half remember the words. I don't think it's a lack of pride but rather an discomfort showing patriotism.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@heineken
A top French club can expect to play between 32 and 38 club games per season. A Super Rugby team will play between 18 and 21 games. The Currie Cup and ITM Cup see their international players withdrawn and have different squads (correct me if I'm wrong; I know in SA there's not so much difference). The Top 14 doesn't. The playing load on Top 14 teams is far higher hence larger squads and the need to import players.

 

[TRF_heineken]

@heineken
A top French club can expect to play between 32 and 38 club games per season. A Super Rugby team will play between 18 and 21 games. The Currie Cup and ITM Cup see their international players withdrawn and have different squads (correct me if I'm wrong; I know in SA there's not so much difference). The Top 14 doesn't. The playing load on Top 14 teams is far higher hence larger squads and the need to import players.

Yeah, the top 14 has a lot more games, and this is another factor which SANZAR tries to manage. they are always looking at ways to have a long rugby season, but not to have too many matches. There are words like burn-out, fatigue and other factors that are always being thrown around during the EOYT when it comes to the SH sides. am I correct in that the 32 - 38 games includes the Top 14 matches and the Heineken Cup pool games? That is another thing that is different as the Currie Cup and the ITM Cup isn't the same time as the Super Rugby tournament.

The only reason why other players are being used in the Currie Cup and ITM cup is because it's during the same period that the Rugby Championship is being played when all the Springboks and All Blacks are being taken from the provincial sides. when the Rugby Championship is over, the Internationals return to their unions, but more often than not are rested for the upcoming EOYT and only the fringe Springboks are then played.

 

[dasNdanger]

Unfortunately, the All Blacks tend to sing their national anthem as if they only half remember the words. I don't think it's a lack of pride but rather an discomfort showing patriotism.

Or is it a discomfort in expressing belief in God through their national 'hymn'?


das

 

[McTallshort]

Or is it a discomfort in expressing belief in God through their national 'hymn'?


das

Or is because most of them are from Tonga....oh dear hope thats not started anything.

 

[Peat]

Or is because most of them are from Tonga....oh dear hope thats not started anything.

*considers nibbling, walks away*

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

am I correct in that the 32 - 38 games includes the Top 14 matches and the Heineken Cup pool games?

That's correct. A Top 14 team plays 26 league games and 6 times in the Heineken or Amlin Cup. They can play up to 3 knockout games in both their domestic and European competitions. It's a crazy number of games. I believe we could take 10 games off that total in a single Euroleague, have stronger (ie first XV) teams every week and that would result in bigger crowds, better sponsorship deals and smaller squads being needed.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's correct. A Top 14 team plays 26 league games and 6 times in the Heineken or Amlin Cup. They can play up to 3 knockout games in both their domestic and European competitions. It's a crazy number of games. I believe we could take 10 games off that total in a single Euroleague, have stronger (ie first XV) teams every week and that would result in bigger crowds, better sponsorship deals and smaller squads being needed.

... Which will mean more SH stars being lured away to the North

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

... Which will mean more SH stars being lured away to the North

It would possibly lead to more stars/internationals being targeted but fewer journeymen coming from South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It would possibly lead to more stars/internationals being targeted but fewer journeymen coming from South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

Maybe, but how often has it happened that those journeymen go to the North, and then become a first team regular player, even captain? Players like WP Nel, Ernst Joubert, Shaun Sowerby, Rory Kockott, Michael Claassen comes to mind

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

That's always a possibility. I just had a look on wikipedia at Castres' squad (Castres were in the same Heineken Cup pool as Leinster who are the team I support). Even allowing for the fact that wikipedia isn't always accurate, 18 out of the 38 man squad are from outside France. I believe that a more condensed calendar with fewer games would dramatically reduce this reliance on foreign players. There'd be less quantity and more proven quality.