Loophole in Eligibility laws welcomed news for Pacific Island Nation

[TRF_stormer2010]

Many people ridicule Scotland for their foreign players and signings, don't worry.

Well Scotland still has a ways to go to get near England and France ITO specifically calling in South Africans. Ireland also ahead of them. What I don't really understand though ITO Scotland is that there should probably be a ton of Kiwi's with actual Scottish heritage at least and with a slightly closer culture as well; why not target them!?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Well Scotland still has a ways to go to get near England and France ITO specifically calling in South Africans. Ireland also ahead of them.

all i'll say is that we get lucky against england and france are playing awful atm.

 

[Patchey]

I'm fairly hacked off that this has actually become a thing. When this was first spotted re Steffon Armitage possibly playing for France through this loophole I thought someone would have thought to close it or clarify the rules. Its starting to seem like this is actually going to become a reality which is faintly ridiculous.

If you've played a capped rugby union international for one nation, you should not be able to play for any others.

I agree that a lot of players of Samoan or Tongan descent have been 'lost' to the All Blacks in the past but having a few guys, mostly past their prime by the looks of those being listed, come and play for a season or two while their careers wind down will do no good to anyone. Both nations have younger players with longer futures that should be picked and allowed to develop as players in the national side. if the IRB was to make release clauses for internationals mandatory that would do a lot more to develop the strength of the Pacific Island teams than any dodgy eligibility loop hole that I still hope will be closed.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I'm fairly hacked off that this has actually become a thing. When this was first spotted re Steffon Armitage possibly playing for France through this loophole I thought someone would have thought to close it or clarify the rules. Its starting to seem like this is actually going to become a reality which is faintly ridiculous.

If you've played a capped rugby union international for one nation, you should not be able to play for any others.

I agree that a lot of players of Samoan or Tongan descent have been 'lost' to the All Blacks in the past but having a few guys, mostly past their prime by the looks of those being listed, come and play for a season or two while their careers wind down will do no good to anyone. Both nations have younger players with longer futures that should be picked and allowed to develop as players in the national side. if the IRB was to make release clauses for internationals mandatory that would do a lot more to develop the strength of the Pacific Island teams than any dodgy eligibility loop hole that I still hope will be closed.

How can them being born in NZ, raised in NZ and trained in NZ mean they were lost to the PI's?! This weird notion will just never die.

 

[donmcdazzle]

This is what im trying to get at. As a Tongan the most exciting thing isnt the fact we are getting ex All Blacks, it's that young polynesian kids in NZ and Australia will no longer hold out for an ALL BLACK jersey. In saying that this is where international rugby was heading anyways. With the All Black jersey no longer keeping players in NZ over the bigger contracts in Japan and Europe.

So you don't think there are enough NZ born and raised players in the island teams already?

 

[IKALETAHI]

Eurpoeans in NZ are in a different boat to Pacific Islanders. Pacific Islanders havnt been living in NZ for generations all those Samoan Tongan Players parents were born in the Islands. It's totally different to a european player who has a grandmother who is half scottish.Not understanding the pacific culture is another reason most wouldnt understand.

I can guarantee that all pacific Islanders in the All Blacks consider themselves Samoa or Tonga as well as kiwi. Look at Malakai Fekitoa who said he would choose NZ over Tonga because of the money opportunities to provide for his family.

I dont think there are enough NZ born Polynesian Islanders representing the Islanders The more the better for the Islanders. Hopefully Malakai Fekitoa and Patrick Tuipulotu end up playing for Tonga somewhere down the line. I hope the Savea Brothers turn out for Samoa. This is great for the game in the Islands to have little kids who watch there heroes playing super rugby playing for Samoa or Tonga on home soil.

At the end of the day these players see themselves as Islanders and what to play. Unlike other nations who would have players swap over these Tongan and Samoan player will be making no money and would be playing for pride.

On the development side The european players get the same training the Islanders get and yet the most destructive players to put on the jersey have been full blooded (Both Parents born in either Tonga,Fiji, or Samoa) so lets not say training is everything genetics play a massive role.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I like where this thread is going.

 

[Draggs]

So the PI fans have no problem with their team filling up with ex-ABs who are just looking for a last run around past their sell-by date?
Make your decision, take a cap and that's it. If you aren't able to make the squad after that, it's your problem (Nacewa...)

 

[donmcdazzle]

Eurpoeans in NZ are in a different boat to Pacific Islanders. Pacific Islanders havnt been living in NZ for generations all those Samoan Tongan Players parents were born in the Islands. It's totally different to a european player who has a grandmother who is half scottish.Not understanding the pacific culture is another reason most wouldnt understand.

I can guarantee that all pacific Islanders in the All Blacks consider themselves Samoa or Tonga as well as kiwi. Look at Malakai Fekitoa who said he would choose NZ over Tonga because of the money opportunities to provide for his family.

I dont think there are enough NZ born Polynesian Islanders representing the Islanders The more the better for the Islanders. Hopefully Malakai Fekitoa and Patrick Tuipulotu end up playing for Tonga somewhere down the line. I hope the Savea Brothers turn out for Samoa. This is great for the game in the Islands to have little kids who watch there heroes playing super rugby playing for Samoa or Tonga on home soil.

At the end of the day these players see themselves as Islanders and what to play. Unlike other nations who would have players swap over these Tongan and Samoan player will be making no money and would be playing for pride.

On the development side The european players get the same training the Islanders get and yet the most destructive players to put on the jersey have been full blooded (Both Parents born in either Tonga,Fiji, or Samoa) so lets not say training is everything genetics play a massive role.

I'm not sure what gives you the right to speak on behalf of every NZ born person of pacific islander descent, or even how you know their attitude without speaking to them, but i'll look past that for the sake of this discussion.

Most destructive =/= best. If all it took was being genetically large then yeah Samoans and Tongans would be the best probably. NZ people with island heritage aren't any bigger, they're just trained better than they would be in the islands hence they get better than they would otherwise be.

Mate more than half of the Samoan team are born and bred kiwis - how is that not enough? Soon enough there will be many 3rd and 4th generation island kids in NZ so you won't have a point anymore.

 

[IKALETAHI]

Mate more than half of the Samoan team are born and bred kiwis - how is that not enough? Soon enough there will be many 3rd and 4th generation island kids in NZ so you won't have a point anymore.

I wouldnt put a number on "Enough" as long as they are eligible bring em on board regardless of how many.Im not talking about 3rd or 4th generations im talking about the current group of players a time may come where you wont have Polynesian players whose parents were born in the islands and they may not feel a strong connection to the Islands

I said nothing about destructive being best all I said was destructive and ill take these destructive players anyday it's what makes Kaino, Nonu, Savea, and Fekitoa.

Ive met alot of the Islanders who have played or play for the All Blacks and Super Rugby most of my Family lives in NZ i've lived in NZ but thats beside the point. You wont get it because you're not familiar with the culture. Later down the track with alot of these players marrying Europeans in NZ you may not have this problem due to the majority only being half liand seeing themselves as Kiwi.

Why else would these players swap over and play for Tonga or Samoa for free? They will have to pay their own air fares to get to games. Like I said before this is a part of the culture you wouldnt understand. You may have alot of Samoans, Tongans and Fijians in NZ and Austrlia yet they keep their culture they still raise their kids the way its done in the Islands they speak the language fluently. No matter what country they are citizens of they would still call themselves Tongan or Samoan. You think all those fans that showed up at airports are from Tonga or Samoa? or Kiwis of Polynesian descent who decided to show up in Samoan or Tongan colours instead of Black.

All im saying that no matter what country you live in Some cultures have a stronger bond or a spiritual connection to the place where their ancestors are from. Like stormer pointed out alot of middle eastern people feel this way and so do Polynesians. So these players who wanna represent Tonga or Samoa forking out money from their own pocket good on em. This will do wonders for the kids back in the Islands.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I wouldnt put a number on "Enough" as long as they are eligible bring em on board regardless of how many.Im not talking about 3rd or 4th generations im talking about the current group of players a time may come where you wont have Polynesian players whose parents were born in the islands and they may not feel a strong connection to the Islands

I said nothing about destructive being best all I said was destructive and ill take these destructive players anyday it's what makes Kaino, Nonu, Savea, and Fekitoa.

Ive met alot of the Islanders who have played or play for the All Blacks and Super Rugby most of my Family lives in NZ i've lived in NZ but thats beside the point. You wont get it because you're not familiar with the culture. Later down the track with alot of these players marrying Europeans in NZ you may not have this problem due to the majority only being half liand seeing themselves as Kiwi.

Why else would these players swap over and play for Tonga or Samoa for free? They will have to pay their own air fares to get to games. Like I said before this is a part of the culture you wouldnt understand. You may have alot of Samoans, Tongans and Fijians in NZ and Austrlia yet they keep their culture they still raise their kids the way its done in the Islands they speak the language fluently. No matter what country they are citizens of they would still call themselves Tongan or Samoan. You think all those fans that showed up at airports are from Tonga or Samoa? or Kiwis of Polynesian descent who decided to show up in Samoan or Tongan colours instead of Black.

All im saying that no matter what country you live in Some cultures have a stronger bond or a spiritual connection to the place where their ancestors are from. Like stormer pointed out alot of middle eastern people feel this way and so do Polynesians. So these players who wanna represent Tonga or Samoa forking out money from their own pocket good on em. This will do wonders for the kids back in the Islands.

Meh, I played with a know a guy who plays for the Tongan national team. He hadn't even been to Tonga before he represented the national side and he didn't speak any Tongan. Why did he do it? I can tell you it wasn't because of the way he was brought up or his culture. He is a regular kiwi like me. He did it to go and play at a world cup, something he would never have been able to do playing for his real country NZ.

The test will be to see how many of these ring in guys play for the islands after the world cup, doubt it'll be any of them.

 

[Draggs]

I think Toulon could suddenly become a large contributor to the French XV!

 

[IKALETAHI]

Meh, I played with a know a guy who plays for the Tongan national team. He hadn't even been to Tonga before he represented the national side and he didn't speak any Tongan. Why did he do it? I can tell you it wasn't because of the way he was brought up or his culture. He is a regular kiwi like me. He did it to go and play at a world cup, something he would never have been able to do playing for his real country NZ.

The test will be to see how many of these ring in guys play for the islands after the world cup, doubt it'll be any of them.

Was his name Willie Lose He would be the only Tongan born in NZ who cant speak the language who put his hand up for a WOrld CUp. You have Kurt Morath from NZ who obviously didnt do it just to play in a World Cup and he is a half cast. The World Cup comment is another topic though with Tonga not having the funds like other nations being the main reason they cant keep consistancy with squads (players paying for their own trip and accomadation)

You're missing my point again though. Most Islanders leave the Islands not because they WANT to become a Kiwi or an Aussie its to provide for their families. Tonga and Samoa make most of their money from Families sending money back home. It was Malakai Fekitoas sole reason he gave for wanting to play for the All Blacks instead of Tonga in an Interview. Im not saying these young boys dont see themselves as NZders either but dont be naive and think they dont call themselves Samoan, Tongan, or Fijian either.

Regardless of the loophole I think the way the game is going most talented Polynesian kids in NZ will opt for bigger money contracts in Europe over the jersey and play for the Islands. I've been watching Tameifuna the last 2 yrs I dont know how Faumuina gets picked ahead of him but im glad. Their has been talk He will opt for Tonga and take big money in Europe. Bundee Aki has opted for bigger money and I think this will occur more often in the future which is Good for Islands. With the majority of Age grade players in the NRL holden cup and Union Under 20's in NZ being of Tonga or Samoan Descent and European clubs scouting them I think we will see Tonga and Samoa reap the benefits in the future.

 

[IKALETAHI]

In that sense Jews throughout the world see themselves as Jews first and then as Americans or Polish or whatever. Are you saying they should all f*** off to Israel? Same here.

Totally agree with this and this is exactly what im trying to get at. The amount of "Kiwis" in Australia who hold residency or Citizenship refer to themselves as Maori or Kiwi first. The ALL BLACKS would feel like they were at a home game in Brisbane or Melbourne.

The polynesian boys arent in the same boat as players who leave NZ just to get a taste of International Rugby. I dont know what Sean Maitlands motives were so I hate to use him as an example , But I think most people are classing Islanders in the same boat. These Polynesian players who play for the Wallabies,All blacks,England, and Wales all have a strong connection to the Islands and call themselves Polynesian Islanders and are Proud.

What other motivation could there be. These boys would have to pay for their own flights and Accomadation, These boys already make big Money in Europe so they dont need exposure to get a Contract. Majority have accomplished everything they could as far as competing at the highest level and going to a World Cup.

 

[nickdnz]

What I don't get about posters here bemoaning the new loophole is it's totally fine if guys like the highlighted pair play for Scotland and there are any number of similar cases but guys who are actually Samoan or Tongan now turning out for Samoa or Tonga is a problem. This new rule although not ideal I'll grant is not any worse IMO than what we've already seen or at least what SA has already seen.

PS; not really pointing at your post specifically, ImScotty; just a samll part of a far greater issue SA has struggled to effectively address. And, yes I lay the blame at the SARu's feet and no-one elses.

Well Scotland still has a ways to go to get near England and France ITO specifically calling in South Africans. Ireland also ahead of them. What I don't really understand though ITO Scotland is that there should probably be a ton of Kiwi's with actual Scottish heritage at least and with a slightly closer culture as well; why not target them!?

In that sense Jews throughout the world see themselves as Jews first and then as Americans or Polish or whatever. Are you saying they should all f*** off to Israel? Same here.

Totally agree with this and this is exactly what im trying to get at. The amount of "Kiwis" in Australia who hold residency or Citizenship refer to themselves as Maori or Kiwi first. The ALL BLACKS would feel like they were at a home game in Brisbane or Melbourne.

The polynesian boys arent in the same boat as players who leave NZ just to get a taste of International Rugby. I dont know what Sean Maitlands motives were so I hate to use him as an example , But I think most people are classing Islanders in the same boat. These Polynesian players who play for the Wallabies,All blacks,England, and Wales all have a strong connection to the Islands and call themselves Polynesian Islanders and are Proud.

What other motivation could there be. These boys would have to pay for their own flights and Accomadation, These boys already make big Money in Europe so they dont need exposure to get a Contract. Majority have accomplished everything they could as far as competing at the highest level and going to a World Cup.

The point is they want to play in a World Cup, as it's sort of a big deal. If Kahn Fotoali'i had a Welsh grandmother he'd likely be playing for Wales...That is the point.

Having a dude play for the All Blacks, and when he is no longer wanted deciding he is Tongan is a double standard. Like I have pointed out multiple times, most New Zealanders can't trace their origins to New Zealand back further than a grandparent, myself included. I am certainly not English. I am certainly not doubting you when you say many people of Pacific Island heritage feel connected to the Pacific Islands. Any ethnic minority probably feels very similar. I'm certainly not convinced all player with PI ancestory can speak fluently in the language of their grand parents, it's certainly not the case with many of my friends and people I play rugby with who have Pacific Islanders ancestry. The point is if these players genuinely feel they are Samoan/Tongan/Fijian, they should only play for those teams. It doesn't negatively impact their careers here, as someone like Alapati Leiua or Nemani Nadolo demonstrates. It's about making a choice, maybe a tough choice for some, but a fair one which all players are given.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Then I'm all in favour of players playing in NZ to sign legal letters of intent if they want to play for NZ or not.
If they want to play for Samoa or Tonga, cool; NZ Rugby can invest their limited funds into developing players that actually want to play for NZ.
If a player breaks that contract, then NZRFU has every right to chase them for the money we have invested into them.

Then we'll see an end to this BS about Tongan born NZers claiming they are Tongan first.
If you're Tongan first; all good. But don't come to the NZRFU for free rugby development.

 

[nickdnz]

Then I'm all in favour of players playing in NZ to sign legal letters of intent if they want to play for NZ or not.
If they want to play for Samoa or Tonga, cool; NZ Rugby can invest their limited funds into developing players that actually want to play for NZ.
If a player breaks that contract, then NZRFU has every right to chase them for the money we have invested into them.

Then we'll see an end to this BS about Tongan born NZers claiming they are Tongan first.
If you're Tongan first; all good. But don't come to the NZRFU for free rugby development.

You forget the NZRU is in favour of ex-All Blacks playing for the Pacific Islands...

A policy like that would be much better in terms of getting reimbursement for development from NH teams, as to be honest the NZRU should really be getting some returns from a player who they develop and selected ahead of other New Zealand talent. I think the only way of doing it would be making players sign longer NZRU contracts (regardless of Super Rugby contracts, which would also have to be topped up) and then raise transfer fees.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think Toulon could suddenly become a large contributor to the French XV!

Best post... maybe ever.

+1

Having a dude play for the All Blacks, and when he is no longer wanted deciding he is Tongan is a double standard. Like I have pointed out multiple times, most New Zealanders can't trace their origins to New Zealand back further than a grandparent, myself included. I am certainly not English. I am certainly not doubting you when you say many people of Pacific Island heritage feel connected to the Pacific Islands. Any ethnic minority probably feels very similar. I'm certainly not convinced all player with PI ancestory can speak fluently in the language of their grand parents, it's certainly not the case with many of my friends and people I play rugby with who have Pacific Islanders ancestry. The point is if these players genuinely feel they are Samoan/Tongan/Fijian, they should only play for those teams. It doesn't negatively impact their careers here, as someone like Alapati Leiua or Nemani Nadolo demonstrates. It's about making a choice, maybe a tough choice for some, but a fair one which all players are given.

Fair point. The reality is much more involved and convoluted but a fair point. As part of a minority myself I know where the majority of PI posters on here are coming from but you make a fair point and those players do have a 'homeland' with a sovereign identity even if it is a small series of islands.

Then I'm all in favour of players playing in NZ to sign legal letters of intent if they want to play for NZ or not.
If they want to play for Samoa or Tonga, cool; NZ Rugby can invest their limited funds into developing players that actually want to play for NZ.
If a player breaks that contract, then NZRFU has every right to chase them for the money we have invested into them.

Then we'll see an end to this BS about Tongan born NZers claiming they are Tongan first.
If you're Tongan first; all good. But don't come to the NZRFU for free rugby development.

Rugby is now a business and this will probably be the end result, yes. I didn't understand why NZ don't have the u20 side as their dedicated 2nd qualificatio team but seemingly that is now not a factor so I won't be surprised to see the likes of NZ and SA in particular have age grade players start signing some sort of undertaking for the development opportunities afforded to them. There'll still be many slipping through the cracks but that will always be the case.

 

[IKALETAHI]

Well you would have players sign an intent for the duration of their contractswith the NZRU,But that only binds em for however long the contract is for(ex Ben Tameifuna) If they didnt get a Call up to the All Blacks or were used for 1 test or 1 year (ex Frank Halai, Anthony Tuitavake) they could not resign and take up a better deal overseas. This will become a massive topic later on because I feel NZ will see more and more players who were "Developed in New Zealand" opt for the bigger contracts in Europe even before they get a crack at the Black Jersey.

 

[squirrel]

Heard that Nadolo is actually an Australian, how did they let him slip away