Loophole in Eligibility laws welcomed news for Pacific Island Nation

[Tautahi]

Yes Pacific Islands have nothing to do with the development of it's players, for a number of reasons we don't have the resources or exposure and many a Kiwis themselves through birth. But at the end of the day it's the player's choice what jersey he chooses to put on. Nations can't say no to a player who grew up in NZ played rugby there his whole life, and who chooses to put up his hand up for selection but refuse him cause he is a product of another system. Yes we benefit from everything New Zealand offers our players and thank them very much.

 

[welshglory]

ImScotty, you do ask a relevant question though in who would you like to possibly see jog out for your own country...

I can't think of anyone I'd actually want even if it weren't for the 18 months rule. I might be missing someone though. The SA guys playing elsewhere I could think of;

Rob Herring - Ireland
Richardt Strauss - Ireland
Robbie Diack - Ireland
Dan Vickerman -Aus
Brad Barritt - England
Matt Stevens - England
Daniel Coetzee - France
Antonie Claassen - France
Bernard le Roux - France
Quinton Geldenhuys - Italy
Justin Melck - Germany
DTH van der Merwe - Canada

Strnagely enough the only one I'd consider is DTH van der Merwe but he is such a fixture in the Canada side and iit'd just be ridiculous considering him coming over TBH.

Sure you wouldn't take Daniel Coetzee?
Tightheads are a rare commodity.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Sure you wouldn't take Daniel Coetzee?
Tightheads are a rare commodity.

From what I've seen of him at test level he didn't live up to expectations. Granted he didn't have a lot of chances but he went backwards more than enough to have made France and myself doubt. For SA I prefer Frans Malherbe when fit or Julian Redelinghuys if HM ever takes notice.

 

[aucklander]

This is exciting news for the Pacific Nations, The Rugby world cup will be more competitive when you have all the best players around the world participating at this tournament.
Tonga and Samoa will have great depth for the World Cup.
Samoa XV for the world cup
15 Isaia Toeava
14 Digby Ioane
13 Robbie Fruen
12 Tim Nanai Williams
11 Alapati Leiua
10 Lima Sopoaga
9 Kahn Fotualii
8 Taiasina Tuifu'a
7 Jack Lam
6 Ofisa Treviranus
5 Joseph Tekori
4 Filo Paulo
3 Census Johnson
2 Ole Avei
1 Neemia Tialata

 

[Peat]

Because without the investment of the NZRU they wouldn't be nearly as good as they are. The island countries have had pretty much nothing to do with their development as rugby players and yet keep on reaping the rewards. This already happens and now this stupid loophole allows it even more so.

The island countries aren't the only countries that people emigrated to NZ from. Richie McCaw probably has "full blooded" (what does that even mean?) ancestry from the British Isles. If he turned around and played for England at the next world cup I'm sure it would strike you as not right. Exact same thing for these guys.

Their development as rugby players has much to do with the genes they were born with and the way their parents raised them. No amount of technical training and exposure to excellence can compensate for being slow and skinny, or lazy and undisciplined. Their genetic and cultural heritage shapes them as players; their genetic and cultural heritage are products of the land their parents or grandparents came from, and in a lot of cases would still be in for if it were not for economic imperatives. The New Zealand rugby team can afford to lose quite a few potential players and still be ahead on the Pacific Island diaspora.

I don't like this loophole. The prospect of stronger international teams is not as cool as genuinely representative teams and straight and clear loyalties once picked. I would happily sacrifice Olympic Sevens for that. To be honest, I'm now very dubious about Olympic sevens altogether. But the way some people are trying to pour scorn on the idea of second or third generation emigrants having a genuine right to represent that country is something I equally dislike. Bluntly, it largely seems to come from people whose countries are losers in this process, and smells a lot like rationalising "My country gets done by this so I think its crap" to sound less petty.

Maybe you guys really don't know any people who are second or third generation immigrants whose lives and loyalties are strongly dictated by the land of their mothers and fathers. Maybe you've missed all the various famous people and events and what not that show it's a thing as well. But, it's not difficult to start finding these things and people. You've got people here who can tell you stories about it. It's real. I'm not sure why people choose not to believe in it. Seems pretty illogical.

 

[nickdnz]

Their development as rugby players has much to do with the genes they were born with and the way their parents raised them. No amount of technical training and exposure to excellence can compensate for being slow and skinny, or lazy and undisciplined. Their genetic and cultural heritage shapes them as players; their genetic and cultural heritage are products of the land their parents or grandparents came from, and in a lot of cases would still be in for if it were not for economic imperatives. The New Zealand rugby team can afford to lose quite a few potential players and still be ahead on the Pacific Island diaspora.

I don't like this loophole. The prospect of stronger international teams is not as cool as genuinely representative teams and straight and clear loyalties once picked. I would happily sacrifice Olympic Sevens for that. To be honest, I'm now very dubious about Olympic sevens altogether. But the way some people are trying to pour scorn on the idea of second or third generation emigrants having a genuine right to represent that country is something I equally dislike. Bluntly, it largely seems to come from people whose countries are losers in this process, and smells a lot like rationalising "My country gets done by this so I think its crap" to sound less petty.

Maybe you guys really don't know any people who are second or third generation immigrants whose lives and loyalties are strongly dictated by the land of their mothers and fathers. Maybe you've missed all the various famous people and events and what not that show it's a thing as well. But, it's not difficult to start finding these things and people. You've got people here who can tell you stories about it. It's real. I'm not sure why people choose not to believe in it. Seems pretty illogical.

I think Peat, people are more annoyed at how these situations are becoming commonly and obviously disingenuous.

I disagree genetics can be count as a genuine contribution, and certainly have nothing to do with national rugby bodies...

Regardless, I'm sure you would find that just about every professional player in New Zealand could trace their grand parents to another country, I don't think that means we owe anyone else anything. If Gareth Ansombe genuinely felt Walsh, then it shouldn't take Warren Gatland announcing he is a big part of his 2015 World Cup plans to eventually seal the deal.

The idea that an ex-All Blacks wants to play for another country now that his time is up with the All Blacks is frankly wrong. It cheapens both jerseys and is in no way fair to the people who miss out on international honors because of those players. Equally I could point out that it is the nations which benefit from newly discovered grandparents, are considerably and conveniently more open to the idea. It is the like of Aki, a person born in New Zealand, couldn't make the All Blacks, moves to Ireland and comments that if that doesn't work out he can play for Samoa through heritage. This is just becoming a joke. Having a Scottish grand parent does not make Maitland Scottish. He can't even get a British passport...

International rugby is not club rugby. If the players in your international team barely represent the people of the country then what is the point?

And Peat, you may find it interesting to know that the NZRU has been in favor players changing allegiances to play for tier 2 teams for years. They are clearly not worried about players they wouldn't select for the All Blacks anyway, going to play elsewhere. It may in fact be that some people genuinely find the idea of swapping allegiances cheapening international rugby. You only have to look at the joke situation that continues with League to see that's the case. It could very well work the other way, maybe the NZRU will snap up someone like Nadolo by giving him a run in the 7's team. Regardless, it would still suck.

 

[psychic duck]

I think Peat, people are more annoyed at how these situations are becoming commonly and obviously disingenuous.

I disagree genetics can be count as a genuine contribution, and certainly have nothing to do with national rugby bodies...

Regardless, I'm sure you would find that just about every professional player in New Zealand could trace their grand parents to another country, I don't think that means we owe anyone else anything. If Gareth Ansombe genuinely felt Walsh, then it shouldn't take Warren Gatland announcing he is a big part of his 2015 World Cup plans to eventually seal the deal.

The idea that an ex-All Blacks wants to play for another country now that his time is up with the All Blacks is frankly wrong. It cheapens both jerseys and is in no way fair to the people who miss out on international honors because of those players. Equally I could point out that it is the nations which benefit from newly discovered grandparents, are considerably and conveniently more open to the idea. It is the like of Aki, a person born in New Zealand, couldn't make the All Blacks, moves to Ireland and comments that if that doesn't work out he can play for Samoa through heritage. This is just becoming a joke. Having a Scottish grand parent does not make Maitland Scottish. He can't even get a British passport...

International rugby is not club rugby. If the players in your international team barely represent the people of the country then what is the point?

And Peat, you may find it interesting to know that the NZRU has been in favor players changing allegiances to play for tier 2 teams for years. They are clearly not worried about players they wouldn't select for the All Blacks anyway, going to play elsewhere. It may in fact be that some people genuinely find the idea of swapping allegiances cheapening international rugby. You only have to look at the joke situation that continues with League to see that's the case. It could very well work the other way, maybe the NZRU will snap up someone like Nadolo by giving him a run in the 7's team. Regardless, it would still suck.

Nick, I believe the NZRU took that position I believe on behalf of the PIs. And by the way, there's no chance NZRU could pick Nadolo, he's played within last 18 months for his country, and it's not even certain he has a passport given he hasn't spent that much time there and even Halai doesn't. After next year the international stand down period increases to 3 years as well, and you can only switch in Olympic related events meaning it will be quite a long thing to do, after this season nobody will be able to switch until 2018 having not played since 2014/15.

 

[nickdnz]

Nick, I believe the NZRU took that position I believe on behalf of the PIs. And by the way, there's no chance NZRU could pick Nadolo, he's played within last 18 months for his country, and it's not even certain he has a passport given he hasn't spent that much time there and even Halai doesn't. After next year the international stand down period increases to 3 years as well, and you can only switch in Olympic related events meaning it will be quite a long thing to do, after this season nobody will be able to switch until 2018 having not played since 2014/15.

Yeah, they did.

I was thinking as more of a long-term position rather than this upcoming Olympics, but a 3 year gap may be longer than a player like Nadolo would wait...

 

[Big Ewis]

all I can say is all three Pacific Island nations constantly get screwed over, I'm guessing in quasi-totality by clubs not releasing, if not for other reasons too.
I'm watching the Top 14 a full season, looking at quality Fijian players throughout, wingers but also forwards, and then the internationals pick up and I don't see many names I recognize and loads of those guys are missing. Samoa looked RIDICULOUS last November in terms of the missing names on the squad sheet. Where are all the freaking players ?? Hopefully we get to see a real Samoa, Fiji and Tonga for the World Cup. That's when they like to upset teams

 

[goodNumber10]

hhhmmm!

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/pick-country-country/

 

[psychic duck]

Yeah, they did.

I was thinking as more of a long-term position rather than this upcoming Olympics, but a 3 year gap may be longer than a player like Nadolo would wait...

Yes, especially as he will be 30 by 2018, cost himself a chance to play at a World Cup, and NZ have a curious track record of a number of world class wingers like Lomu, Wilson, Howlett, Rokocoko, Sivivatu all never won a cap in their 30's with the next world class winger coming through the ranks and replacing them meaning there would be no guarantee he would be wanted by then either. Also you would have to make sure he had a passport, and make him stop going to Japan where he probably makes a fair bit of money to make him qualified through ordinary IRB regulations as well so that he spent 3 years straight in the country. NZ won't be desperate enough to go through all that.

all I can say is all three Pacific Island nations constantly get screwed over, I'm guessing in quasi-totality by clubs not releasing, if not for other reasons too.
I'm watching the Top 14 a full season, looking at quality Fijian players throughout, wingers but also forwards, and then the internationals pick up and I don't see many names I recognize and loads of those guys are missing. Samoa looked RIDICULOUS last November in terms of the missing names on the squad sheet. Where are all the freaking players ?? Hopefully we get to see a real Samoa, Fiji and Tonga for the World Cup. That's when they like to upset teams

They had a full strength team of available players last November.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

This is exciting news for the Pacific Nations, The Rugby world cup will be more competitive when you have all the best players around the world participating at this tournament.
Tonga and Samoa will have great depth for the World Cup.
Samoa XV for the world cup
15 Isaia Toeava
14 Digby Ioane
13 Robbie Fruen
12 Tim Nanai Williams
11 Alapati Leiua
10 Lima Sopoaga
9 Kahn Fotualii
8 Taiasina Tuifu'a
7 Jack Lam
6 Ofisa Treviranus
5 Joseph Tekori
4 Filo Paulo
3 Census Johnson
2 Ole Avei
1 Neemia Tialata

but my problem with this is if Digby Ioane and Isaia Toeava went back to super 15 rugby i'd reckon they'll get back into they're national team to problem well Digby definitely not too sure about Toeava.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

well this this i wish either glasgow or edinburgh sign Brendan McKibbin so he is eligible to play for scotland and maybe Cornell du Preez/WP Nel

 

[Draggs]

How long has Henson been in England for? Might not need Twelvetrees or Eastmond anymore...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

How long has Henson been in England for? Might not need Twelvetrees or Eastmond anymore...

but do you really need henson or even want him playing for england

 

[Feicarsinn]

but do you really need henson or even want him playing for england

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

well this this i wish either glasgow or edinburgh sign Brendan McKibbin so he is eligible to play for scotland and maybe Cornell du Preez/WP Nel

What I don't get about posters here bemoaning the new loophole is it's totally fine if guys like the highlighted pair play for Scotland and there are any number of similar cases but guys who are actually Samoan or Tongan now turning out for Samoa or Tonga is a problem. This new rule although not ideal I'll grant is not any worse IMO than what we've already seen or at least what SA has already seen.

PS; not really pointing at your post specifically, ImScotty; just a samll part of a far greater issue SA has struggled to effectively address. And, yes I lay the blame at the SARu's feet and no-one elses.

 

[LittleGuy]

hhhmmm!

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/pick-country-country/

Glad they brought up the same issue I have, the possibility of joke run outs on the 7's circuit to become eligible, I wonder if we'll see anyone with Prop and Hooker like physiques run on the field for 30 seconds and than become eligible for a switch. I have absoutley no idea why this chnage should apply to XV's. If you want to permantly change for 7's knock yourself out.

 

[Draggs]

What I don't get about posters here bemoaning the new loophole is it's totally fine if guys like the highlighted pair play for Scotland and there are any number of similar cases but guys who are actually Samoan or Tongan now turning out for Samoa or Tonga is a problem. This new rule although not ideal I'll grant is not any worse IMO than what we've already seen or at least what SA has already seen.

PS; not really pointing at your post specifically, ImScotty; just a samll part of a far greater issue SA has struggled to effectively address. And, yes I lay the blame at the SARu's feet and no-one elses.

Many people ridicule Scotland for their foreign players and signings, don't worry.

 

[Blackdevil]

Looks like Tonga might improve the most out of this, don't think it will make much of a difference for Fiji. Maybe Drauniniu who played sevens for England would be good

That's what i thought, that's change nothing pratically for fiji but for samoa and mostly tonga that's a great opportunity.
Not sure i'm ok with it, great opportunity for mercenaries too.

I'm watching the Top 14 a full season, looking at quality Fijian players throughout, wingers but also forwards, and then the internationals pick up and I don't see many names I recognize and loads of those guys are missing.

it's not always true, i have seen a lots of fijians guys from top 14 or pro d2 in the last PNC