Jwrc 2015

[Crapspray]

Hard to be disappointed after that. New Zealand clearly the better side. It would have been unfair to New Zealand had they not won - the Ioane sin bin was ridiculously harsh. Apart from those ten minutes, and the opening ten, England were struggling to gain traction.

As Maverick said, it's difficult to tell if it's the lack of quality players or the coaching. I do feel we're missing great ball-carriers in the pack (give me two of Cowan-Dickie, Hobbs-Awoyemi, Itoje, and Clifford), but the glaring errors that lead to the tries are a hallmark of Saxons' performances of the last two years. Constantly faffing around just between their own 22 and the halfway-line being the other.

All-in-all, mildly content. Did far better than I expected after the Six Nations. Lots of these lads are nineteen and should have another crack next year.

 

[nickdnz]

After the opening few minutes I was preparing for England to run rampant. Very close game.

For me - Ioane has to be junior player of the year. Immense this tournament and he has been colossal in the tight and the loose.

 

[austingtir]

Ioane is so good at 21 its crazy. He should be groomed as a long term AB but should maybe do the olympic 7's first then concentrate on locking down a position in the AB's.

For me hands down he is the obvious choice to replace Messam and Kaino hell maybe even Read (he's on the decline imo). in two or three years time.

Its like with the Blues you didnt even really notice Kaino wasnt there when he played as he plays almost the same.

 

[nickdnz]

Ioane is so good at 21 its crazy. He should be groomed as a long term AB but should maybe do the olympic 7's first then concentrate on locking down a position in the AB's.

For me hands down he is the obvious choice to replace Messam and Kaino hell maybe even Read (he's on the decline imo). in two or three years time.

Its like with the Blues you didnt even really notice Kaino wasnt there when he played as he plays almost the same.

He only turned 20 a few days ago. So to point out the obvious he was 19 for all his games with the Blues.

 

[gaston le gaff]

after watching most of the games Ioane is one hell of a player his future does look excellent must be named Player of the Toutnament, Congrats to Baby Blacks on their success, they were worthy winners, and excelllent place going to France, having beaten England and only losing one game before the mini final match, to eventual winners the Baby Blacks!!!!!!

 

[Peat]

Didn't see it but congrats to the Baby Blacks.

As Maverick said, it's difficult to tell if it's the lack of quality players or the coaching. I do feel we're missing great ball-carriers in the pack (give me two of Cowan-Dickie, Hobbs-Awoyemi, Itoje, and Clifford), but the glaring errors that lead to the tries are a hallmark of Saxons' performances of the last two years. Constantly faffing around just between their own 22 and the halfway-line being the other.

All-in-all, mildly content. Did far better than I expected after the Six Nations. Lots of these lads are nineteen and should have another crack next year.

If it's difficult to tell it's probably both.

It's not a bad group of players mind; it's short of the quality we've seen recently but that level has been phenomenal. We'll probably get the 4 or so genuine international class players we need from this age group and there's plenty of guys who'll have good Premiership careers.

 

[Crapspray]

If it's difficult to tell it's probably both.

It's not a bad group of players mind; it's short of the quality we've seen recently but that level has been phenomenal. We'll probably get the 4 or so genuine international class players we need from this age group and there's plenty of guys who'll have good Premiership careers.

Fair point. They actually read out the team that lost in the 2011 final and only four of them have actually become regular internationals*, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to hope for that many of this year's team to make it through. Sixteen new players between world cups would be a good output to aim for.


*Ford (sort of), Farrell, M. Vunipola, and Launchbury. With Daly, Wade, Thomas, Kvesic, and Yarde all hovering around.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's definitely a mix of both IMO - all of the sides that Callard coaches for England have a similar floundering style in the middle third of the pitch.
The players this year individually are a clear step-down, but they are still good - you add in the handful of injured players to this squad and give them the same coaching set-up as in previous years and they immediately improve.
Batley, Mallinder, Fowlie, Marchant - I think those would have added a noticeable boost to this squad, from the bench or starting.

I don't really get to follow u18's that closely because it's not televised, but the guys coming into the u20's next year are supposed to be very good.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

BT sport Video showing the tries; this latter video shows the tries and Iaone sin-binning for no arms tackle. Clearly the linesman needs glasses.

 

[Wendigo7]

It's definitely a mix of both IMO - all of the sides that Callard coaches for England have a similar floundering style in the middle third of the pitch.
The players this year individually are a clear step-down, but they are still good - you add in the handful of injured players to this squad and give them the same coaching set-up as in previous years and they immediately improve.
Batley, Mallinder, Fowlie, Marchant - I think those would have added a noticeable boost to this squad, from the bench or starting.

I don't really get to follow u18's that closely because it's not televised, but the guys coming into the u20's next year are supposed to be very good.

If that's the case how good are the french youngsters?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Under-18_Rugby_Union_Championship#Elite_Division_2015

We got beat in the semi final, so that's not particularly awe inspiring if you want to go down the results route.

 

[ratsapprentice]

We got beat in the semi final, so that's not particularly awe inspiring if you want to go down the results route.

I don't - because it's u18 and I haven't seen them play much at all.
I can only go on what people who have watched them/are familiar with them say - and from what I have read they are pretty good.
We'll see.

 

[Wendigo7]

I've seen elsewhere Tom Protheroe is meant to be outstanding as a FH, but couldn't make an honest judgment because I don't know anything about him.

 

[Peat]

If that's the case how good are the french youngsters?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Under-18_Rugby_Union_Championship#Elite_Division_2015

We got beat in the semi final, so that's not particularly awe inspiring if you want to go down the results route.

Probably not as good as ours as you want the 2014 U18 Championship for the 2016 U20s?

Tbh, a lot of the players have arrived already as noted. Hills, Walker, Parker, Treadwell, Batley, Beckett, Ludlam, Homer, Jennings, Mallinder, Marchant, Clark and Perkins all can return next year - that's very close to a full team.

That said, France look like they are building up the head of steam you'd expect from this at this level.

 

[Kiwi_]

Ioane, Ardie and Cane are going to form another formidable back 3 come next World Cup, just need to make sure we tie him down and get him committed, I say he will get a selection for next years end of the year tour. I've been impressed with Otere Black as well.

 

[yaboyjj]

It wasn't the vintage of 2011/13/14 from England, but I think there were still some quality players coming through who could maybe be internationals one day- Hill, Genge, Ludlow, Walker for starters. Surely even for two or three players a year to emerge like this would be a pretty handy quota.

Was pretty funny on the commentary how they said Northampton would never show favoritism towards their international players in the squad over emerging talent (who would always be given a fair opportunity), Stephenson and Haywood would probably have cause to disagree....
Amazing to think that Ludlow is only 18 (two years left at u20!), yet was one of the best players out there on Saturday. Norts certainly have three/four promising talents emerging in Packman, Hill, Ludlow and Mallinder- I hope they are given a fair crack when ready.

 

[Peat]

It wasn't the vintage of 2011/13/14 from England, but I think there were still some quality players coming through who could maybe be internationals one day- Hill, Genge, Ludlow, Walker for starters. Surely even for two or three players a year to emerge like this would be a pretty handy quota.

Was pretty funny on the commentary how they said Northampton would never show favoritism towards their international players in the squad over emerging talent (who would always be given a fair opportunity), Stephenson and Haywood would probably have cause to disagree....
Amazing to think that Ludlow is only 18 (two years left at u20!), yet was one of the best players out there on Saturday. Norts certainly have three/four promising talents emerging in Packman, Hill, Ludlow and Mallinder- I hope they are given a fair crack when ready.

Ludlam, not Ludlow. Ludlow plays for Glaws. And the RFU site says he's 19. Elliott might disagree with international players not getting any favouritism over the kids, Waller too.

And, while I want to work this out properly one day, 2 to 3 players a year leaves you with too shallow a pool of internationals, and that's assuming they're internationals for 10-12 years, which is a pretty nuts achievement that not many do. I think I've read the average All Black's international career only lasts 3 years? Now that's probably biased by the strongest level of competition of selection in the world and financial incentives to end their career, but it should point you to how unusual the long career is.

 

[yaboyjj]

Ludlam, not Ludlow. Ludlow plays for Glaws. And the RFU site says he's 19. Elliott might disagree with international players not getting any favouritism over the kids, Waller too.

And, while I want to work this out properly one day, 2 to 3 players a year leaves you with too shallow a pool of internationals, and that's assuming they're internationals for 10-12 years, which is a pretty nuts achievement that not many do. I think I've read the average All Black's international career only lasts 3 years? Now that's probably biased by the strongest level of competition of selection in the world and financial incentives to end their career, but it should point you to how unusual the long career is.

oops, keep getting them mixed up :huh:
Waller playing for Norts, was mostly because Corbs has been perma-crocked for the past year- any remotely 50/50 call has gone Corbs' way RE selection. Which International has Elliott been playing above? (genuinely can't remember). edit: Pisi?

Yeah- thinking about it two would be a little thin- I suppose you have to factor in that some England players (although fewer and fewer nowadays) do not progress through age groups and rather mature later.

 

[Peat]

oops, keep getting them mixed up :huh:
Waller playing for Norts, was mostly because Corbs has been perma-crocked for the past year- any remotely 50/50 call has gone Corbs' way RE selection. Which International has Elliott been playing above? (genuinely can't remember). edit: Pisi?

Yeah- thinking about it two would be a little thin- I suppose you have to factor in that some England players (although fewer and fewer nowadays) do not progress through age groups and rather mature later.

Mix-up there - I was saying that Waller and Elliott could agree with your statement, not that they were counter-examples.

I was about to agree with you, but I looked it up and out of the current group, that's Burrell, Easter, Morgan, Slater, Twelvetrees, Strettle, Wigglesworth and Tom Wood who all didn't play at U20 level with Ashton, Barritt, Burgess, Eastmond and Myler also missing out at that level for obvious reasons. And sure, sure there's plenty of old dudes in that, but there'll still be a fair trickle from the looks of it. Tuilagi would also qualify (because he got promoted straight past U20) if selected, as would Waldrom, Ewers, the seemingly inevitable selection of Nathan Hughes, Rokoduguni (RFU haven't updated their site), Chris Pennell, Joe Gray...

 

[OhDannyBoy]

This years RWC will probably plumb new depths with regard to "officiating" if recent trends carry forth.
Watch this space.

Roman Poite is going to be famous after this RWC.
Like I said...watch this space.