Jwrc 2015

[smartcooky]

THat's RACIST!! I'm sure of it. I expected more from you, Cooky!

Is "groen" not Afrikaans for "green"? as in "My bloed is groen"?

 

[OhDannyBoy]

As is usual, I don't think referee Brendon Pickerill got everything right (referees in any sport who have 100% mistake free games are about as common as rockinghorse sh¡t) but IMO there were no glaring or critical errors. He managed the game well and kept a good, strict offside line at ruck and maul, using warnings rather than penalties, and talking to players during down times and between plays to keep them on track. His management of the breakdown was excellent IMO.

Both yellow cards awarded against South Africa were fair and fully justified. Their lack of discipline is what cost them in this match, and nothing illustrated this better than the fact that the referee warned them twice in the first 10 minutes about high tackles, and within minutes, their Captain (of all people) committed another one and got binned. Then within a short time after he returns, their lock Jenkins (?) committed a yet another one, and he was binned as well. What they hell do people expect the referee to do when players ignore his repeated warnings?

The penalty try to England was textbook. We have seen several just like it in Super Rugby this year.

Comments that the referee was biased in order determine which team NZ would face in the final are as over the top as they are wrong.

The ref came out with express purpose of only penalising one side...and one side only.
He issued two yellow cards, including the captain, and presided over a completely lopsided, one-eyed 11-2 penalty count, as well as two team warnings, all in the first 20 minutes.
He blew one side off the park, and ensured that any game plan they had was in shreds.

You'll no doubt have also wondered why, when a late shoulder charge on a SA player was committed, he didn't even bother to request the TMO look at it. Why not? Is that not foul play anymore?
Ditto for the England player flopping straight onto a ruck from the SA side when they were on the attack 4 meters from the England line.
It happened right in front of him, and he didn't even bother to penalise that.
The penalty try might have been a classic, but the early shove against a 7 man pack, as clear as the light of day, causing the SA front row to go back half a meter and lose their body position, was ludicrous. He was standing right there, and simply ignored what was happening.

We have yet again a referee in charge of a game that decides who his countrymen meet in the final.
We know what happened the last time such an inept appointment was made.
In most other sports, the rather obvious conflict of interest will be picked up upon.
It was the son of an official who should have been kicked out the game after he was caught colluding with other officials to match fix.
He even went to the extent of asking the recipient of his email not to share it with the victims of the collusion.
When it was sent in error to those whom he was colluding and a storm brewed, he said he was "only joking".
The man should have been booted out of the game immediately.

Using the Super Rugby comp is strange...the reffing has universally been acknowledged as being abysmal from all sides in this years Super Rugby, due to "non neutral" refs being given games to officiate.
Recently, we had a TMO ludicrously disallowing a perfectly legitimate try against a team of his countrymen, much to the disbelief of the commentators and almost all the viewers watching.

This was a stitch up, plain and simple. Pickerell trotted out with a game plan which he proceeded to put in place.
Whilst there was some cause for at least one of the yellow cards, the complete ignoring of the foul play from the other side, as illustrated by just the two examples given above, make a mockery of any sense of fairplay.

The above is my opinion, after my 4th decade involvement of rugby, during which I've seen and experienced plenty of situations when a gameplan is ruined by shocking or biased refereeing to know what I'm viewing. I struggle to think of a sport at the moment, short of boxing, that is held so completely to the mercy of an officials actions, and what he decided to "interpret" is good, or what he decides to penalise or flat-out ignore.

This years RWC will probably plumb new depths with regard to "officiating" if recent trends carry forth.
Watch this space.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

Meh....what's done is done.
Until the next time.

Losing interest until these things get rectified.

 

[smartcooky]

The ref came out with express purpose of only penalising one side...and one side only.
He issued two yellow cards, including the captain, and presided over a completely lopsided, one-eyed 11-2 penalty count, as well as two team warnings, all in the first 20 minutes.
He blew one side off the park, and ensured that any game plan they had was in shreds.

You'll no doubt have also wondered why, when a late shoulder charge on a SA player was committed, he didn't even bother to request the TMO look at it. Why not? Is that not foul play anymore?
Ditto for the England player flopping straight onto a ruck from the SA side when they were on the attack 4 meters from the England line.
It happened right in front of him, and he didn't even bother to penalise that.
The penalty try might have been a classic, but the early shove against a 7 man pack, as clear as the light of day, causing the SA front row to go back half a meter and lose their body position, was ludicrous. He was standing right there, and simply ignored what was happening.

We have yet again a referee in charge of a game that decides who his countrymen meet in the final.
We know what happened the last time such an inept appointment was made.
In most other sports, the rather obvious conflict of interest will be picked up upon.
It was the son of an official who should have been kicked out the game after he was caught colluding with other officials to match fix.
He even went to the extent of asking the recipient of his email not to share it with the victims of the collusion.
When it was sent in error to those whom he was colluding and a storm brewed, he said he was "only joking".
The man should have been booted out of the game immediately.

Using the Super Rugby comp is strange...the reffing has universally been acknowledged as being abysmal from all sides in this years Super Rugby, due to "non neutral" refs being given games to officiate.
Recently, we had a TMO ludicrously disallowing a perfectly legitimate try against a team of his countrymen, much to the disbelief of the commentators and almost all the viewers watching.

This was a stitch up, plain and simple. Pickerell trotted out with a game plan which he proceeded to put in place.
Whilst there was some cause for at least one of the yellow cards, the complete ignoring of the foul play from the other side, as illustrated by just the two examples given above, make a mockery of any sense of fairplay.

The above is my opinion, after my 4th decade involvement of rugby, during which I've seen and experienced plenty of situations when a gameplan is ruined by shocking or biased refereeing to know what I'm viewing. I struggle to think of a sport at the moment, short of boxing, that is held so completely to the mercy of an officials actions, and what he decided to "interpret" is good, or what he decides to penalise or flat-out ignore.

This years RWC will probably plumb new depths with regard to "officiating" if recent trends carry forth.
Watch this space.

You are way, way off the mark. Even the Saffa media and players acknowledged they had discipline problems, and that it was those problems that cost them. Its not surprising that one side got penalised a lot, since that one side was the one committing the majority of the offences; and by the way, the penalty count was 13-11 in favour of South Africa.

You talk big (four decades involvement blah,blah blah) but you post like an immature teenage noob. You come across like another one of those Conspiracy Theorist KEO refugees that bleat on and on about how "the whole world out to get South Africa", "Justice 4" and all that crap. Thank heavens people like you are more than balanced out by sensible and level headed South African posters on this forum

But what would I know? I only have FIVE decades of involvement in rugby, the first two as a player and a coach, and the last three as a referee, a referee coach and advisor.

 

[yaboyjj]

Meh....what's done is done.
Until the next time.

Losing interest until these things get rectified.

I've seen you posting the same rubbish over on the PR forums too- give it a rest, it stinks of sour grapes.
For the record, sure some decisions went the way of England, but for the most part it was really poor discipline from the Boks- you would think after the first card for a high tackle, the teams would have got the memo that the ref was

 

[OhDannyBoy]

You talk big (four decades involvement blah,blah blah) but you post like an immature teenage noob. You come across like another one of those Conspiracy Theorist KEO refugees that bleat on and on about how "the whole world out to get South Africa", "Justice 4" and all that crap.
Thank heavens people like you are more than balanced out by sensible and level headed South African posters on this forum

Nice.
A completely unrelated, unwarranted personal attack.


When exactly have I personally attacked you again?
Or any other poster?

 

[Peat]

In how many years England will show this supremacy at U20 in the senior level?

The two most likely answers to this are -

1) Never - England continue to waste the potential talent available to them due to a number of factors.

2) About four to six years time, maybe a little longer.

The 2011 team was the first one that I think really made people sit up and really challenged the All Blacks (and I think NZ fans would be the first to point out the 2011 Baby Blacks team were a highly talented group that's gone on to provide a lot of top professional players) - the guys from that age group are just turning 24. Their peak is not for another four years or so by and large, minimum. I'd say they're beginning to provide the spine of the backs now, but in the forwards only Launchbury's nailed down his position - Thomas, Vunipola, Kvesic, those guys are fringe players, guys like Haywood, Matthews and Gray haven't lived up to their early potential due to injury/not being that good.

2013 is when the "dominance" kicked in - those guys are just turning 22. We're seeing the first little batch of them bleed into the England set-up. You might expect these guys to hit their peak in six years.

2019 is the first point at which you can expect teams to be mostly made up of players from 2011-2014 JWRC vintage, although even that's a little early. I think from 2019-2023 is when you'll find out whether England are capable of exploiting the situation.

 

[Wendigo7]

Yikes... What did I miss in here.

By the way I didn't think the English front 3 were scrummaging illegally (at least not the naked eye). It just looked like a well timed scrum that popped up the saffa pack a fair few times.

Hard, tough game though, not one for the purist but the defences were very well organised. Genge and especially Walker impressed me. Walker's darts were excellent and his general all round game is the best i've seen of a hooker at that level in the past couple of years. Tompkins and Clark are hard buggers as well.

Thought the Saffa fly half was very good though. Shame De Toit didn't show up

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Is "groen" not Afrikaans for "green"? as in "My bloed is groen"?

Well, yes. But that *tone*!!! At least the way I read it and heard it in my head.. dispecable.

 

[yaboyjj]

Yikes... What did I miss in here.

By the way I didn't think the English front 3 were scrummaging illegally (at least not the naked eye). It just looked like a well timed scrum that popped up the saffa pack a fair few times.

Hard, tough game though, not one for the purist but the defences were very well organised. Genge and especially Walker impressed me. Walker's darts were excellent and his general all round game is the best i've seen of a hooker at that level in the past couple of years. Tompkins and Clark are hard buggers as well.

Thought the Saffa fly half was very good though. Shame De Toit didn't show up

It's certainly nice to see some promising hookers coming through after what was looking to be a potentially worrying position for a while, in terms of depth/quality.
The fact the Genge seemingly got the better of the highly touted Du Toit in most of the scrums, is pretty exciting considering his inexperience - Bris seem to think he's in the mould of Sheridan- if he gets gets close that, then England could be onto a winner.
Future is def looking rosy long term in terms of recent front row graduates from the u20s- Marler, Vunipola, Genge, LCD, Walker, Brookes, Hill, Sinkler..

 

[smartcooky]

Nice.
A completely unrelated, unwarranted personal attack.


When exactly have I personally attacked you again?
Or any other poster?

You opened the door pal, I just walked through it!

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

You opened the door pal, I just walked through it!

Can you two do all that in PMs or something? It's just I quite like this thread.

It'd be interesting to have a look at previous England U20s teams and see who's, if not actually playing for England, starting for their club or in the wider setup of training squads and Saxons, etc.
England U20s 6Ns squad 2010:
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Lee Imiolek (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Arthur Ellis (London Wasps), Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Bristol Rugby),Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Calum Green (Leicester Tigers), Danny Wright (Gloucester Rugby), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Peter Elder (London Wasps), Jamie Gibson (London Irish), Joe Trayfoot (Harlequins), Jacob Rowan (Leeds Carnegie), Will Welch (Newcastle Falcons), Alex Gray (Newcastle Falcons) Jackson Wray (Saracens)
Backs: Sam Harrison (Leicester Tigers), Jordi Pasqualin (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Stuart (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Rory Clegg (Harlequins), Jake Sharp (Saracens), Tom Catterick (Newcastle Falcons), Tom Casson (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Smith (Harlequins), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marcus Watson (London Irish), Will Hurrell (Leicester Tigers), Tom Homer (London Irish), Jack Wallace (London Wasps)

Just the names I recognize in bold there, it is a surprising amount to be fair, more than I expected- interestingly far more in the front row and back three than second and back rows, centres, etc. Maybe they were just the places we were lacking players in due to retirement after the 2011 RWC.
(Apologies for cluttering up the thread)

 

[Peat]

Can you two do all that in PMs or something? It's just I quite like this thread.

It'd be interesting to have a look at previous England U20s teams and see who's, if not actually playing for England, starting for their club or in the wider setup of training squads and Saxons, etc.
England U20s 6Ns squad 2010:
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Lee Imiolek (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Arthur Ellis (London Wasps), Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Bristol Rugby),Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Calum Green (Leicester Tigers), Danny Wright (Gloucester Rugby), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Peter Elder (London Wasps), Jamie Gibson (London Irish), Joe Trayfoot (Harlequins), Jacob Rowan (Leeds Carnegie), Will Welch (Newcastle Falcons), Alex Gray (Newcastle Falcons) Jackson Wray (Saracens)
Backs: Sam Harrison (Leicester Tigers), Jordi Pasqualin (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Stuart (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Rory Clegg (Harlequins), Jake Sharp (Saracens), Tom Catterick (Newcastle Falcons), Tom Casson (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Sam Smith (Harlequins), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marcus Watson (London Irish), Will Hurrell (Leicester Tigers), Tom Homer (London Irish), Jack Wallace (London Wasps)

Just the names I recognize in bold there, it is a surprising amount to be fair, more than I expected- interestingly far more in the front row and back three than second and back rows, centres, etc. Maybe they were just the places we were lacking players in due to retirement after the 2011 RWC.
(Apologies for cluttering up the thread)

I think the only positions in which there wasn't a blatant need for new players post-2011 was scrum-half (Care, Youngs, Simpson, Wigglesworth) and blindside (Croft, Wood, Haskell) - and there's still been games in which other guys have played those positions. Every other position, it was clear we'd need at least one new guy by 2015, or at least going by my recollections it is

Also, your list is slightly short; Gray is part of the 7s set-up along with Marcus Watson (does 7s really count?), Welch starts for Newcastle, Gibson and Wray have both wracked up serious amounts of game time and have had some form of England involvement in the last two years. I forget how much Catterick has played for Newcastle but think it's a fair amount.

 

[arry nordy key]

I'd add to the above that Sam Harrison has cemented a place in the Leicester 23, if not pushing BY, Calum Green starts more often than not for Newcastle and that Shaun Knight, Jacob Rowan, Joe Trayfoot, Tom Casson, Rory Clegg, Sam Smith are all top professionals that aren't about to push for International honours but are the kind of players that can do a job in the Premiership without looking at all off the pace.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Ill discipline is what cost us, just like Smartcooky and Stormer mentioned.

I do feel however that the scrummaging interpretation in the match was not right, but with that said, I have to commend the English loosehead prop. He has a lot of tricks in his bag, and used it to their advantage at the scrums. I thought the english pack used the "walking around" trick a lot, and that penalty try was an example of it. When they didn't do the "walk around" the loosehead prop was scrummaging in and upwards, especially when the ref was on the other side.

My biggest gripe with the baby boks was that it seems like Dawie Theron is using the "primary school" tactic, of picking the biggest players available in the forwards. But it didn't seem that there were any smart players in that pack. our mistakes was silly and repetitive, and a clever captain would've realised this and made corrections.

I also don't know why we didn't use our backline more?? Thompson kicked every damn ball we got from a turnover, and only in the last 10 minutes we started to use our creative backline properly and scored 2 good tries.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It's certainly nice to see some promising hookers coming through after what was looking to be a potentially worrying position for a while, in terms of depth/quality.
The fact the Genge seemingly got the better of the highly touted Du Toit in most of the scrums, is pretty exciting considering his inexperience - Bris seem to think he's in the mould of Sheridan- if he gets gets close that, then England could be onto a winner.
Future is def looking rosy long term in terms of recent front row graduates from the u20s- Marler, Vunipola, Genge, LCD, Walker, Brookes, Hill, Sinkler..

Just thought I'd mention that Du Toit was played out of position at tight head to accommodate Ox Nche and that he is a loose head.

Ill discipline is what cost us, just like Smartcooky and Stormer mentioned.

I do feel however that the scrummaging interpretation in the match was not right, but with that said, I have to commend the English loosehead prop. He has a lot of tricks in his bag, and used it to their advantage at the scrums. I thought the english pack used the "walking around" trick a lot, and that penalty try was an example of it. When they didn't do the "walk around" the loosehead prop was scrummaging in and upwards, especially when the ref was on the other side.

My biggest gripe with the baby boks was that it seems like Dawie Theron is using the "primary school" tactic, of picking the biggest players available in the forwards. But it didn't seem that there were any smart players in that pack. our mistakes was silly and repetitive, and a clever captain would've realised this and made corrections.

I also don't know why we didn't use our backline more?? Thompson kicked every damn ball we got from a turnover, and only in the last 10 minutes we started to use our creative backline properly and scored 2 good tries.

I would also like to mention that despite my still feeling we let ourselves down I do tend to get the idea SA teams tend to be either more focussed upon or just rarely get the benefit of those 50/50s or non-calls. This may just be my passions stirring me but that is the general feeling I have had for a while now and it's a rare game where we get more 'good luck' than the other team.

 

[OhDannyBoy]

You opened the door pal, I just walked through it!

This statement of yours makes no sense to my question.

Again...why are you personally attacking me, insulting me, when I've done nothing of the sort to you?

- - - Updated - - -

Can you two do all that in PMs or something? It's just I quite like this thread.

I've been speaking about events that have transpired on the pitch, and to do with rugby, at this JWC.
At no stage have I stooped to attacking and insulting a fellow poster.

What exactly is the forum code of conduct here?

- - - Updated - - -

My biggest gripe with the baby boks was that it seems like Dawie Theron is using the "primary school" tactic, of picking the biggest players available in the forwards.

He didn't though.

He brought in a flanker who was smaller than the other two he's played before.
Also, the hooker and one prop are smaller than the couterparts he could have used, but then, he has to contend with racial quotas, so probably had no choice there, to be fair to your point.

 

[smartcooky]

Ill discipline is what cost us, just like Smartcooky and Stormer mentioned.

I do feel however that the scrummaging interpretation in the match was not right, but with that said, I have to commend the English loosehead prop. He has a lot of tricks in his bag, and used it to their advantage at the scrums. I thought the english pack used the "walking around" trick a lot, and that penalty try was an example of it. When they didn't do the "walk around" the loosehead prop was scrummaging in and upwards, especially when the ref was on the other side.

I disagree with your assessment that England walked the scrum (that led to the penalty try) around.

It was clear and obvious in the overhead view that the South African THP was stepping sideways to avoid going backwards. This allowed his hooker and LHP to pivot around him. That action by the THP of stepping sideways or pulling back to create what has become known as the "whip wheel", is the action that the referee is looking for to determine the difference between a scrum being wheeled legally and illegally.

 

[Maverick1987]

Big Congratulations to New Zealand ! Really well fought victory . England did a lot better than I thought they would . Don't look as powerful as the past 2 years . Not sure if the players aren't as good or if it's Callard that's the problem ...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Absolutely, most complete team this year, and much better than last year's NZ side.
Tahuriorangi, Ioane, Li and Moli are all awesome.

I think this year's England side did very well to reach the final and to put in a good shift once they got there - they are a big step down from the previous two years.
I think that's fairly clear, Callard's record is still pretty dismal.