June Internationals: New Zealand v France, First Test (08/06/13)

[Tony Manx]

dude, just....don't. It's amazing enough ppl take pride in this somehow, just, remain a spectator and read the stuff they come up with. Thou shall not reply !

Touche................

 

[Big Ewis]

I'm watching the full match only just now...
How many ppl on this forum have noticed Owen Frank's weird whole-body-shaking before a scrum ??

I finished the 1st half...Cruden supposed to make us all forget about Dan Carter ?? HAH !! Dude either should change his shoes or buy glasses...I mean, WTF were those first 2 kicks ?!!...

* Huget=+1
* Machenaud isn't as bad as ppl say, he's had some uninspired moments, but also some good play.
* Our scrum with Ducalcon, definitely = -1, but we weren't exactly getting manhandled either; cost us a few penalties, very questionable ones in fact (who collapses first...that sorta thing).
* Not bad on attack. Hearing some guys out, it sounded like a snorefest.
* Some excellent defense most of the time from France, as NZ.

 

[Larksea]

interesting game,

I actually think this is a good positive for the all blacks. This was a french side that "showed up" and the AB's won without:

McCaw
Carter
Woodcock
Sam Whitelock
Cory Jane
Richard Kahui

Sure there are some issues for the all blacks to iron out, as you would expect for the first test of the year. The breakdowns were a mess, they need to figure out how to deal with the threat the french have there. I think they really missed the influence of Hore. I know Coles is good and he had a good showing but he's not the type pf player Hore is around the tight and breakdowns. I think we really need to develop a hooker in the mold of Hore.

The french also seemed to get through in Cruden/Nonu's area, I can't pick exactly who's problem it was without going over the game again. Seemed a bit wider than where you'd expect cane to be defending. I know if I was the french coach I would be directing my attack at Cruden and Nonu, seemed the french did the same and profited. AB's need to make sure they reinforce this area.

One try game from a french block that caused Cane to knock nonu over as cane seemed to see what was happening and showed more urgency to get wide and Nonu got in his way.

Scrums were up and down and that I believe is the story of Crockett's test carrier, I'm really not convinced with Crockett. I think right now he is being selected because of his form a few years ago. he doesn't have the spark he used to have during that period he was an absolute blockbuster in super rugby and for whatever reason he has not been that reliable at scrum time. Back then he was a genuine Ball Runner but dont see it from him much these days. Ben Franks is better on defense and more mobile and importantly more reliable at the scrums.

For the rest:

Ben Smith was Ben Smith, just a shame the AB's could not get him more ball.

Dagg looked threatening but in the end just wasn't.

pretty quiet night for Savea and Conrad Smith, expected more from both but Savea in particular.

Cruden looked good with the ball in the first half but missed a couple goals you would expect him to get and was somewhat found out on defense.

Nonu was great with the ball and despite a couple of eye catching tackles he still was a bit of a letdown on defense.

A smith was ok and sharp at times but Barlow looked a bit better and he adds significantly to defense.

best forwards were Retalick for his crazy workrate and next was Messam for his tackling and physicality plus a couple important plays. Romano was pretty good, Read was good but not quite what you expect from him being probably the premier #8 in world Rugby. Cane was ok too, an expected game from him.

Was interesting that the back 5 in the forward pack played the 80, doesn't usually happen was it Vito and Thrush on the bench. I dont think the coaches wanted to disrupt the impressive defensive work of Retalick, Messam and Cane in particular. maybe not the best test for Thrush to debut with the french close on the scoreboard. I tend to think Thrush is so experienced now he would have been fine.

You would expect few changes if any for the 2nd test but there are a couple of options. Starting Ranger is one of them, either at 13 or on the wing and move Ben Smith to 15. Got one touch of the ball and made a bunch of meters with it leaving a frenchman out cold in his wake. Surely the massive strides he's made in his tackling in particular mean he can start tests now and we can see more and more of these crazy arsed ranger runs. Ben Franks starting at loosehead has to be an option.

 

[admartian]

I have to say that admartian's comments of "knocked the ***** out" was pretty silly. I mean, who says that kind stuff? It does seem like he was agitated that the game was closer than expected, and had to say something silly to try and get a reaction from the French fans (which he did). But yeah comment wasnt necessary. My 2c anyways if its worth anything.
.

Not at all. Read the posts after.

I've said it before - during games, I tend to post with my heart on my sleeve. For yoe and Manx to take it to heart is a bit silly.

If we want to discuss the merits of the game and even the hit, I'm all ears. Just don't start getting personal and attacking people. Look I can understand that it's a French player and someone possibly (that you guys perceived to be cheering an injury) - I get it - see trnasgressions agaisnt mcCaw.

But this hit wasn't that. It wasn't really anyone's fault - just the way it played out.

I've always been up to letting it go so long as people can let go of the spiteful crap - sorry if you took it that way. But in future, I would suggest to try not to have a go at the person instead of the post.

Yeah i thought this was a rugby forum not an mma forum, my mistake. Anyways, he didnt even get "KTFO" if you want to see someone get "KTFO" take a look at what happened to Weepu or Conrad Smith.

Mate this seems so silly to even discuss, of course we love big collisions, part of the reason why we love the game.

Exactly. So why am I receiving the third degree again?

I had that reaction as to say what a spectacular (not necessarily in a positive way) collision/event it was - not to cheer a possible injury (to which he wasn't - if he was, then it was a poor job by the triners to leave him on).
Are you guys even reading my posts clarifying what I'm saying?

I understand some of you just want to hate and plaster some silly label against NZ fans, then so be it - IGNORE THIS POST IF WANT TO MAKE THIS A CRUSADE. But if not, I thought we were all adult enough here to hear each other out...

(Apologies Ryoto if you feel I pointing you out unnecssarily - just so happened your posts contained what I wanted to address. Cheers)

 

[admartian]

i
The french also seemed to get through in Cruden/Nonu's area, I can't pick exactly who's problem it was without going over the game again. Seemed a bit wider than where you'd expect cane to be defending. I know if I was the french coach I would be directing my attack at Cruden and Nonu, seemed the french did the same and profited. AB's need to make sure they reinforce this area.

Ben Smith was Ben Smith, just a shame the AB's could not get him more ball.


Nonu was great with the ball and despite a couple of eye catching tackles he still was a bit of a letdown on defense.

Back to some rugby.

Agree with all.

I'd have to say, if the French can get their wings and midfielders into it a bit more, they'd do well attacking that 9/10/12 channel. They looked good around the middle there - a lot of their line breaks were from that area.

I'd try to poke that part of the field first in the next game if I were them. If it doesn't work, go with plan B, C etc.

 

[Larksea]

I'm watching the full match only just now...
How many ppl on this forum have noticed Owen Frank's weird whole-body-shaking before a scrum ??

I finished the 1st half...Cruden supposed to make us all forget about Dan Carter ?? HAH !! Dude either should change his shoes or buy glasses...I mean, WTF were those first 2 kicks ?!!...

was very unlike Cruden, he's been a ~90% kicker for the last two years in super rugby. Doesn't have the range of carter or some of our other kickers but his accuracy is normally outstanding.

Even Dan carter has bad days, Been a curse of the All Black 10 jumper since dan was on the scene that if they don't play so well they get slated and compared to Dan. This was a bad day for Cruden, he will bounce back.

yeah I've seen Franks do that, didn't take much notice though.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

was very unlike Cruden, he's been a ~90% kicker for the last two years in super rugby. Doesn't have the range of carter or some of our other kickers but his accuracy is normally outstanding.

Even Dan carter has bad days, Been a curse of the All Black 10 jumper since dan was on the scene that if they don't play so well they get slated and compared to Dan. This was a bad day for Cruden, he will bounce back.

yeah I've seen Franks do that, didn't take much notice though.

Cruden's kicking percentages at Super Rugby level for 2013, 2012 and 2011 have been 75%, 78% and 80% respectively.

 

[Larksea]

ok 90 was an exaggeration he has been kicking very well. 90% is hard to keep up. I think he has been up there at times but then you miss a couple and your %age goes down fast. I think he was recently high 80's then he attempted a few kicks that were basically impossible, like extremely long range ones on the half time buzzer kind of thing.

you expect 70% at least. anything over 75% is very good.

his first 3 kicks were the ugliest kicks I've seen him take in the last couple of years.

 

[William18]

Cruden's kicking percentages at Super Rugby level for 2013, 2012 and 2011 have been 75%, 78% and 80% respectively.

But that is equal to if not more than Carter's kicking percentage. Cruden is as good at goal kicking as Carter IMO with only Tom Taylor being better in New Zealand.

 

[admartian]

But that is equal to if not more than Carter's kicking percentage. Cruden is as good at goal kicking as Carter IMO with only Tom Taylor being better in New Zealand.

I would agree. I'd say that the only thing (granted, a significant difference) Carter has over Cruden is clutch/situational goal kicking.

Not to say AC doesn't have that though.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

But that is equal to if not more than Carter's kicking percentage. Cruden is as good at goal kicking as Carter IMO with only Tom Taylor being better in New Zealand.

This is true, statistically. I think you'd find that Carter has a much better accuracy when you look at kicks from over 40 metres, however.

 

[admartian]

This is true, statistically. I think you'd find that Carter has a much better accuracy when you look at kicks from over 40 metres, however.

Probably a range issue.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Probably a range issue.

Well yeah, that was my point...

 

[admartian]

Well yeah, that was my point...

Glad that's clear then.

 

[William18]

Carter has better clutch kicking because he is more experienced. I don't think Cruden's kicking should be a worry (his defence on the inside channel could be).

 

[admartian]

Carter has better clutch kicking because he is more experienced. I don't think Cruden's kicking should be a worry (his defence on the inside channel could be).

I agree with that. I think we'll find out as Aaron's put in that situation. I think he's slightly been a little too harshly slammed in the media for those first two kicks missed. Besides that, I thought he brought a good energy around the park and drove them well enough. I do agree as well - I don't think this will be a thing that should haunt him for too long (the missed kicks).

His defence was surprisingly lacklustre though - he's usually alright (from what I've seen) in that regard. Maybe slide Nonu more towards that side and have Dagg/the fullback hover the deficiency. Dunno.

Either way, if The French break through we just need to cover a bit better (no more pulling a "Crockett" and put up a "no-effort" ) cos once they get loose it's hard to stop.

 

[Larksea]

the more I think about it the more I want to see Ranger start. At 13

This is with the world cup in mind as well. no nation has ever won then held a world cup. I think if we try and preserve players through with a defensive preservation mentality it will backfire.

The form players in super rugby and I'm talking about Ben Smith and Rene Ranger in particular need to be picked and given a shot. Sanity has prevailed with Ben Smith and he's confirmed he's ahead of Dagg as his form has suggested for the last couple of years. Ranger needs to be given the same treatment.

Offensively he's a unique threat in the rugby world for some time and this year he has been a Juggernaut on defense and at attacking the breakdown as well.

He just simply has to find a home - even be a cornerstone for the all blacks starting side.

Everyone hopes that Dagg will become a force again and chances are at just 25 he will, on the other hand Conrad Smith is 32 this year and as good as he is there are already signs of him maybe not being the force he has been. Chances are pretty slim he will be anywhere near his fantastic 2011 form come 2015. ranger is ~26 and will be in his prime come 2015.

reputation does a lot to select players but there has to come a point where form has to become a factor.

Up till this year I've never been much of a Ranger fan. But he is showing maturity and defensive ability this year that is well beyond anything he has shown in previous years. I used to think he would be a test liability, now not only do I think he's a safe option because of his defense but he is a must have because of his unequaled ability to run through over and past defenders in a straight line and get passes away. he's also so good it's worth looking at selecting players that complement him, 12 in particular.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

The Ranger debate is almost pointless until it's confirmed whether or not he's staying in NZ.

 

[admartian]

the more I think about it the more I want to see Ranger start. At 13

This is with the world cup in mind as well. no nation has ever won then held a world cup. I think if we try and preserve players through with a defensive preservation mentality it will backfire.

The form players in super rugby and I'm talking about Ben Smith and Rene Ranger in particular need to be picked and given a shot. Sanity has prevailed with Ben Smith and he's confirmed he's ahead of Dagg as his form has suggested for the last couple of years. Ranger needs to be given the same treatment.

Offensively he's a unique threat in the rugby world for some time and this year he has been a Juggernaut on defense and at attacking the breakdown as well.

He just simply has to find a home - even be a cornerstone for the all blacks starting side.

Everyone hopes that Dagg will become a force again and chances are at just 25 he will, on the other hand Conrad Smith is 32 this year and as good as he is there are already signs of him maybe not being the force he has been. Chances are pretty slim he will be anywhere near his fantastic 2011 form come 2015. ranger is ~26 and will be in his prime come 2015.

reputation does a lot to select players but there has to come a point where form has to become a factor.

Up till this year I've never been much of a Ranger fan. But he is showing maturity and defensive ability this year that is well beyond anything he has shown in previous years. I used to think he would be a test liability, now not only do I think he's a safe option because of his defense but he is a must have because of his unequaled ability to run through over and past defenders in a straight line and get passes away. he's also so good it's worth looking at selecting players that complement him, 12 in particular.

I 100% agree with you. I think he's really upped his positioning and defense (he's always been a decent hitter/tackler). I think Nonu was similar early in his career - where he'd get chances here and there and was finally picked - and has shone for the most part. Let's hope Ranger can at least match that.

But who potentially misses out though? I'd say Barrett, but you can never be too careful with 10s these days. Or drop the third Halfback? Probably the same deal as first-five.

The Ranger debate is almost pointless until it's confirmed whether or not he's staying in NZ.

Good point.

 

[Shaggy]

the more I think about it the more I want to see Ranger start. At 13

This is with the world cup in mind as well. no nation has ever won then held a world cup. I think if we try and preserve players through with a defensive preservation mentality it will backfire.

The form players in super rugby and I'm talking about Ben Smith and Rene Ranger in particular need to be picked and given a shot. Sanity has prevailed with Ben Smith and he's confirmed he's ahead of Dagg as his form has suggested for the last couple of years. Ranger needs to be given the same treatment.

Offensively he's a unique threat in the rugby world for some time and this year he has been a Juggernaut on defense and at attacking the breakdown as well.

He just simply has to find a home - even be a cornerstone for the all blacks starting side.

Everyone hopes that Dagg will become a force again and chances are at just 25 he will, on the other hand Conrad Smith is 32 this year and as good as he is there are already signs of him maybe not being the force he has been. Chances are pretty slim he will be anywhere near his fantastic 2011 form come 2015. ranger is ~26 and will be in his prime come 2015.

reputation does a lot to select players but there has to come a point where form has to become a factor.

Up till this year I've never been much of a Ranger fan. But he is showing maturity and defensive ability this year that is well beyond anything he has shown in previous years. I used to think he would be a test liability, now not only do I think he's a safe option because of his defense but he is a must have because of his unequaled ability to run through over and past defenders in a straight line and get passes away. he's also so good it's worth looking at selecting players that complement him, 12 in particular.

With regard to Conrad Smith, I'd be inclined to try keep him for the next world cup, if possible.

Centre seems to be a position where those with age and experience, seem to thrive, and we shouldn't under estimate his contributions marshaling the All Black back line in defence ... Nonu is a much better player with Smith as his partner in the centres, than with anyone else IMO ... yes, Ranger is having a great season, but I see the ABs using him mostly on the wing, and occasionally covering centre (assuming he's staying in NZ), in much the same way they used Kahui