June International Tests: South Africa vs. France (1st Test) (10/06/2017)

[Penne Rara]

@Bruce_ma_goose

No need to look for players from Toulon IMO. They're stacked with foreigners, and the rest is not up to international standard.
That's the problem with France and the Top 14 comp. New talents aren't promoted to the highest level (club level) because all the places are already taken by ageing talent coming from elsewhere. Billionaires and sponsors are at the root of this joke, people who don't understand anything about rugby and want it to become a poor imitation of soccer, where trading talent matters more than developing grassroots rugby, helping young talents coming from french provinces thrive and become the new hope of the nation. Thankfully, the FFR is beginning to put more emphasis on supporting french talents, but Top 14 will remain the same money pump and things won't change unless we get rid of the wealthy few who have way too much control over the competition and decide who gets to play.

 

[Ospervat]

What an improvement! Good to see. Hopefully not a one off.

Well done SA - 21 points in 7 minutes put it beyond doubt

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

@Bruce_ma_goose

No need to look for players from Toulon IMO. They're stacked with foreigners, and the rest is not up to international standard.
That's the problem with France and the Top 14 comp. New talents aren't promoted to the highest level (club level) because all the places are already taken by ageing talent coming from elsewhere. Billionaires and sponsors are at the root of this joke, people who don't understand anything about rugby and want it to become a poor imitation of soccer, where trading talent matters more than developing grassroots rugby, helping young talents coming from french provinces thrive and become the new hope of the nation. Thankfully, the FFR is beginning to put more emphasis on supporting french talents, but Top 14 will remain the same money pump and things won't change unless we get rid of the wealthy few who have way too much control over the competition and decide who gets to play.

Ouch. I sighed when they said Spedding might come back in. If that is who France rely on for improvement then this series may be over as a contest very quickly.

 

[Ospervat]

Any links for the game?

Send me PM and I'll let you know.

 

[Penne Rara]

@Bruce_ma_goose

Yup, they don't have that many options at fullback, and that's an understatement. Dulin's not the complete package, he's rather small and useless on defense sometimes. Spedding is a player with a lot of intent but. He runs straight lines and never looks up. At best, he hits a defender and manages to stay on his feet, but more often than not, getting isolated leads to loosing the ball forward or directly giving possession away. I love his commitment, and even though I wouldn't go as far as to call him a liability, he's pretty much a lost cause.
And... I don't know who else they could call. Maybe Lacroix? Well, he's a promising winger and has that Mckenzie/Kolbe ability to be elusive on attack. But I don't know about his other abilities and he may not be the complete package either because he wasn't called in the group.

Individually, the french players seem lost and that has an impact on the whole group. The team's clueless on attack and they shift the ball from player to player without a clear goal in mind. This is not a problem that arises from the coaching staff, but it has something to do with the way players train in their respective clubs.
The U20 french team is doing rather well, they're not the same disgrace we've got here. And why so? Because they still haven't played in the Top 14 for a long period of time. As a matter of fact, I'd rather they played in the English premiership than in France. At least, players get to work on their skills in England. France is just about brawn.

*sigh*

Well played South Africa btw! I got so angry with the state of french rugby that I forgot about the match. We deserved a good beating.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

@Bruce_ma_goose

No need to look for players from Toulon IMO. They're stacked with foreigners, and the rest is not up to international standard.
That's the problem with France and the Top 14 comp. New talents aren't promoted to the highest level (club level) because all the places are already taken by ageing talent coming from elsewhere. Billionaires and sponsors are at the root of this joke, people who don't understand anything about rugby and want it to become a poor imitation of soccer, where trading talent matters more than developing grassroots rugby, helping young talents coming from french provinces thrive and become the new hope of the nation. Thankfully, the FFR is beginning to put more emphasis on supporting french talents, but Top 14 will remain the same money pump and things won't change unless we get rid of the wealthy few who have way too much control over the competition and decide who gets to play.

Sounds more like a problem of France not harvesting and growing rugby talent.

I will say that the structure and playing style of the top 14 does not lead to great international play. Poor fitness, lack of creativity, just dependence on force.

 

[Penne Rara]

Sounds more like a problem of France not harvesting and growing rugby talent.

I will say that the structure and playing style of the top 14 does not lead to great international play. Poor fitness, lack of creativity, just dependence on force.

Yup I mentioned it in my last comment.

 

[JJFlash]

I didn't see the game and am surprised at the points difference. In the 6N if I remember correctly, the French defence was ok, but here particularly in the 2nd half, it appears that they went to sleep. Ok, we can say they were missing a few players who I'd like to think would have made a difference. Will they be available for selection for the next test? Hope so.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Send me PM and I'll let you know.

I got a link in the end so not to worry

 

[FrenchFan]

After a 10 mth season and with players like Camille Lopez having played 32 games the last thing the players need is ...more games. When will the penny drop for FFR?

Yannick Bru the forwards coach says he 'can't explain' the poor performance. He's 6 years in his job. http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/test-...age-physique-et-mental_sto6210085/story.shtml

The players are out on their feet after playing 10 mths of rugby and he can't see it. Why is he still in his coaching job if he can't figure it out?

 

[FrenchFan]

Sounds more like a problem of France not harvesting and growing rugby talent.

I will say that the structure and playing style of the top 14 does not lead to great international play. Poor fitness, lack of creativity, just dependence on force.

Really? The Top 14 placed the highest number of clubs (4) in this season's CCup 1/4 finals and Clermont made the final. Stade Français also won the Challenge Cup.

 

[FrenchFan]

Billionaires and sponsors are at the root of this joke, people who don't understand anything about rugby and want it to become a poor imitation of soccer, where trading talent matters more than developing grassroots rugby, helping young talents coming from french provinces thrive and become the new hope of the nation. .

there's only one billionaire owner currently in Top 14 (Altrad at Montpellier) and 3 other sugar daddies (Toulon SF Racing). Out of 30 pro clubs (Top 14+ProD2) it's called a minority.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

But these foreign superstars are blocking the way for the new French talent. I dread to think what would happen to Ireland, Scotland and Wales' international sides if the Pro12 took the same route as the Top14.
Money is a good thing to some extent but when there's too much of it it's a bad thing.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

But these foreign superstars are blocking the way for the new French talent. I dread to think what would happen to Ireland, Scotland and Wales' international sides if the Pro12 took the same route as the Top14.
Money is a good thing to some extent but when there's too much of it it's a bad thing.

Don't worry, Pro12 would have to find someone mad enough to want to buy a rugby club first. The Pro12 planned expansion is all about retaining international players in he league. It sounds like it will take years for France to sort itself out, but at least Laporte took the first steps.

 

[FrenchFan]

It sounds like it will take years for France to sort itself out, but at least Laporte took the first steps.

years? The union's been talking about contracting the internationals since...1995 (after the world cup in SA when the game went pro) - so don't hold your breath.

We've been waiting for FFR to make their move since then. Because it's always their move. Ultimately they're in charge of the national team. It's not the club's problem. Never was.
I'm all for the proposed FFR contracts - it's the only viable solution around the Top 14. It's just that we've been waiting for 2 decades. Every time the union has had the opportunity to centrally contract the internationals and go into power sharing with the clubs, they have typically balked, dick swinged and dithered.

Now of course it's much easier to blame the clubs for decisions the union never had the balls to make. They're in charge of les Bleus. The Top 14 clubs are not going to make the move for them.

Will FFR ever get its fingers out? Fingers crossed... Laporte's been talking the talk during his election but he's gone awful quiet on the FFR contracts since his election. Still waiting....

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Damn, I thought the contracts were a done deal. Laporte is perhaps finding that politics is a difficult business.

 

[SomeOke]

Pretty happy with the performance from the Bokke, but I am aware that this is a second string French side so I don't know how much we can read from it.

Overall there isn't too much to gripe about but that's certainly not going to stop me.

Most importantly we have to finish off opportunities, this isn't just a problem we have because I noticed it from the Lions as well. If you get a clean break with the fullback to beat, there is absolutely no reason why that shouldn't result in a try. You see this from Kiwi teams all the time, the player who made the break always makes the right decision, whether that might be to back his pace and go for the corner, run straight at the FB draw and pass or do a cheeky kick they capitalise on opportunities. Our players just look a little lost in that position and ultimately we let the opportunity go begging.

Also I thought our defense was pretty poor, not necessarily from a mis-tackle perspective but from a tactical perspective. We don't have a particularly fast line, but we also have a tight defense, this means that there is almost always space out wide for our opposition. We gave the French 30 meters every time they swung it wide just because our defensive structure makes no sense. You keep your defense line tight and press them hard to cut off the wide ball, or you come up slowly but spread out to smother all space, what we are currently doing makes no sense at all and it infuriates me. The AB's will score agaisnt us every time one of their wingers touches the ball if we don't fix this.

Other than that lots of positives to take out, our Scrums looked very solid, our forward ball carriers looked strong - particularly Marx and our two flanks, Eben looked good and got through a ton of work, Cronje delivered great service and his chemistry with Elton was excellent, on that note Elton looked confident and took the ball flatter and distributed excellently, and Coetzee put one of the best performances I've seen from a Springbok FB in a while.

I personally love Jesse Kriel and think he's a huge talent as well, there is something to be said for all out pace and power, while some of our lads looked a bit slow in space there is never any doubt Kriel will score when he gets a break. We just need to decide where to keep him as the 13 channel still eludes him in defense.

Our wings were average, but the jury is out.

Overall a much better performance than I could have hoped for (we look nothing like the dejected whipping boys of last year) but it's VERY early in the year and they still have a lot to prove.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Have just watched the game, I thought Malcolm Marx was pretty outstanding, carried like a man possessed and showed off some slick hands too. Mohoje and Kolisi both but in very solid performances, I thought Kriel was a dead cert once he returned from injury but now I'm less sure. Etzebeth was huge, although I thought his missed tackle on Serin was pretty poor, he had defenders outside him, he didn't need to take his attention away from Serin. I continue to be confused by what people see in Whiteley, he really just doesn't seem to me like an 8, his work rate's fine but he can't carry.

For the French Vakatawa looked very dangerous, his defence could do with some work but with ball in hand he's a real threat. Picamoles seems to have really grown in confidence which is good to see but the time he ran the penalty himself then just kicked it away confused me, kicked away possession when they could've just had the lineout further down the pitch. He needs to calm down a bit. Serin's a real talent and Plisson impressed me too.

 

[SomeOke]

Have just watched the game, I thought Malcolm Marx was pretty outstanding, carried like a man possessed and showed off some slick hands too. Mohoje and Kolisi both but in very solid performances, I thought Kriel was a dead cert once he returned from injury but now I'm less sure. Etzebeth was huge, although I thought his missed tackle on Serin was pretty poor, he had defenders outside him, he didn't need to take his attention away from Serin. I continue to be confused by what people see in Whiteley, he really just doesn't seem to me like an 8, his work rate's fine but he can't carry.

For the French Vakatawa looked very dangerous, his defence could do with some work but with ball in hand he's a real threat. Picamoles seems to have really grown in confidence which is good to see but the time he ran the penalty himself then just kicked it away confused me, kicked away possession when they could've just had the lineout further down the pitch. He needs to calm down a bit. Serin's a real talent and Plisson impressed me too.

You forgot to put a trigger warning for besmirching the name of Whitley, be glad their are no Lions fans on this forum .

Agreed Whiteley is pretty average, he's basically a work horse who's only real specialty is decent link play. He's mostly in the side to complete the Lions spine and provide leadership, fair enough if it produces performances like this.

I still think Jaco Kriel would walk into the side, but I would bunt Mahoje over Kolisi, there is no reason to play Kolisi at 6, he isn't a fetcher.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

You forgot to put a trigger warning for besmirching the name of Whitley, be glad their are no Lions fans on this forum .

Agreed Whiteley is pretty average, he's basically a work horse who's only real specialty is decent link play. He's mostly in the side to complete the Lions spine and provide leadership, fair enough if it produces performances like this.

I still think Jaco Kriel would walk into the side, but I would bunt Mahoje over Kolisi, there is no reason to play Kolisi at 6, he isn't a fetcher.

I'd be going with a back row of 6. Kriel 7. Kolisi 8. Vermeulen