Italy vs Ireland - 16/03/2013

[munstermuffin]

If it hadn't been for the France game in his final year Mallett's stint with Italy would have been regarded as a complete failure, and rightly so. They stalled, and quite possibly regressed under him, yet no one seemed to care much as they were expected to be the poorest team. Now they're back heading in the right direction. Okay, they may have a few lean years when this crop of players hang up their boots, but they at least seem to have shaken off the mentality that they're going into a game having already lost it.

As for Ireland, well the only way to go from here is up really. There are some good positives to take out of the tournament though. Luke Marshall looks comfortable at this level, Conor Murray's game seems to be improving, Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy have given us a lot more options in the back three and we've given a bit of time to some younger 10's (although Mads should have clearly been ahead of PJ.)

Looking ahead to the summer I think it's probably safe to say we wont have too large a Lions representation. 8 would be the highest we could possibly lose imo. There's a lot to be said for that however. Firstly, it's a good time for some guys like Marshall and Henderson to get game time under their belt. These are the kind of guys who are going to be the bedrock of the panel for the next few years, so we'd want to get them established in the squad asap. We need to find a new 13 too, so Darren Cave and Eoin Griffin should both probably tour. I wouldn't mind having a look at Luke Fitz there either.



How did Archer go actually?

Archer was ok like didn't have alot but was certainly not a disgrace.
Feic I agree with you about Italy stalling a few years ago but the Rabo may help them avoid lean years and it's evident like how much the lads from Zebre and Treviso are after progressing in last few years.
As for Lions I seriously reckon Healy, D.Ryan, O'Brien, Best, Sexton and BOD are only certainties. Maybe Ross, Kearney, Murray or Heaslip but I really can't see them and not many more than that.

 

[big ginger 8]

How did Archer go actually?

Better than expected still not that good IMO.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Archer was ok like didn't have alot but was certainly not a disgrace.
Feic I agree with you about Italy stalling a few years ago but the Rabo may help them avoid lean years and it's evident like how much the lads from Zebre and Treviso are after progressing in last few years.
As for Lions I seriously reckon Healy, D.Ryan, O'Brien, Best, Sexton and BOD are only certainties. Maybe Ross, Kearney, Murray or Heaslip but I really can't see them and not many more than that.

I'm interested to see what's going to happen at TH over the next few years for Ireland. There's a generation of meh tightheads out there at the moment in Kilcoyne, Hagan and Archer. Despite Archer's improvements none of them look like they're ever really going to be of the required standard. I have very high hopes for Martin Moore here at Leinster. IMO he should be playing every week in the Rabo as he has all the talent to make it at the top level of the game. He's already a better scrummager than the three guys mentioned.

 

[munstermuffin]

Better than expected still not that good IMO.

In fairness nobody ever said he's good enough at moment but if he keeps improving way he has last 18 months there is hope but he is Ireland's 3rd best TH at moment although not alot between himself and Hagan but Hagan is being blocked by Bent who is worst. And well can we also count on Deccie Fitz who seems to be as fragile as a teapot

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm interested to see what's going to happen at TH over the next few years for Ireland. There's a generation of meh tightheads out there at the moment in Kilcoyne, Hagan and Archer. Despite Archer's improvements none of them look like they're ever really going to be of the required standard. I have very high hopes for Martin Moore here at Leinster. IMO he should be playing every week in the Rabo as he has all the talent to make it at the top level of the game. He's already a better scrummager than the three guys mentioned.

Not a tighthead and never will. John Ryan has done well for Munster lately too but think Rabo will be his level. Moore is a lad I've heard alot about too and I think his problem is similar to Hagans in that Bent is blocking a pathway due to stubborness of not wanting project to be failure. Was same with us time of Borlaise.

Also any word on Luke Fitz?

 

[Feicarsinn]

In fairness nobody ever said he's good enough at moment but if he keeps improving way he has last 18 months there is hope but he is Ireland's 3rd best TH at moment although not alot between himself and Hagan but Hagan is being blocked by Bent who is worst. And well can we also count on Deccie Fitz who seems to be as fragile as a teapot

In fairness to Bent, nobody really expected too much out of him. Sometimes it can take a little while for tightheads to get bedded into a team, so there's still time for him to come on. Mike Ross was hardly stellar in his first season at Leinster.

In saying that I'd still have preferred he hadn't been signed. We have two young lads with the potential to be better than Ross, yet they're stuck behind some fairly average squad players. A shame.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Not a tighthead and never will. John Ryan has done well for Munster lately too but think Rabo will be his level. Moore is a lad I've heard alot about too and I think his problem is similar to Hagans in that Bent is blocking a pathway due to stubborness of not wanting project to be failure. Was same with us time of Borlaise.

Also any word on Luke Fitz?

Sorry, I meant Loughney. My bad.

Again, Bent has only been here for a few months. Give him a decent preseason before we write him off.

 

[big ginger 8]

In fairness nobody ever said he's good enough at moment but if he keeps improving way he has last 18 months there is hope but he is Ireland's 3rd best TH at moment although not alot between himself and Hagan but Hagan is being blocked by Bent who is worst. And well can we also count on Deccie Fitz who seems to be as fragile as a teapot

What's that got to do with his performance today?

Nathan White will be qualified in a year or so, Macklin looks like something, Moore does look good and Furlong needs to be getting gametime. At the moment we have a lot of potential at 3 but that's all it is at the moment. As far as I'm aware Munster haven't a single tighthead in their academy. Teams need to pick up the slack.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry, I meant Loughney. My bad.

Again, Bent has only been here for a few months. Give him a decent preseason before we write him off.

I'm willing to give Bent time and for the hope of Ireland I hope he does come good but it just all comes to similar to Borlaise.

He came in Nov and played few games was told wait and give him full season. Well he played full season and worked his way from a starter at Rabo to subbing for A's and eventually on to Connacht A's before returning to NZ

 

[munstermuffin]

What's that got to do with his performance today?

Nathan White will be qualified in a year or so, Macklin looks like something, Moore does look good and Furlong needs to be getting gametime. At the moment we have a lot of potential at 3 but that's all it is at the moment. As far as I'm aware Munster haven't a single tighthead in their academy. Teams need to pick up the slack.

??????????

 

[Feicarsinn]

What's that got to do with his performance today?

Nathan White will be qualified in a year or so, Macklin looks like something, Moore does look good and Furlong needs to be getting gametime. At the moment we have a lot of potential at 3 but that's all it is at the moment. As far as I'm aware Munster haven't a single tighthead in their academy. Teams need to pick up the slack.

Munster should sign Martin Moore. Okay, it seems like I'm overdoing it, but I'll say it right here: he's already a better player than Archer. He'd be their number 2 behind Botha and would be good enough to start when BJ heads home. That'd slove a lot of problems for everyone. Munster would have a new tighthead, Leinster would still have about 4 guys (although I'd be upset to lose the guy) and Ireland would benefit obviously from having another young TH playing regularly.

Hagan wouldn't be a bad signing for them either. He's out of contract at the end of the year too.

 

[munstermuffin]

Munster should sign Martin Moore. Okay, it seems like I'm overdoing it, but I'll say it right here: he's already a better player than Archer. He'd be their number 2 behind Botha and would be good enough to start when BJ heads home. That'd slove a lot of problems for everyone. Munster would have a new tighthead, Leinster would still have about 4 guys (although I'd be upset to lose the guy) and Ireland would benefit obviously from having another young TH playing regularly.

Hagan wouldn't be a bad signing for them either. He's out of contract at the end of the year too.

Well that's it but it hard to get players to move its same with Nagle for us

 

[big ginger 8]

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[munstermuffin]

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But on last comment we have 2 TH props in academy and part about depth to do with today it was just talking with Feic about future

 

[big ginger 8]

Saw this academy list in November and was going of it.

Loosehead Ed Byrne
Loosehead Jack O'Connell
Loosehead Kyle McCall
Loosehead Finlay Bealham
Loosehead James Cronin
Loosehead/Hooker James Treacy
Hooker Niall Scannell
Hooker Brian Byrne
Hooker David Doyle
Hooker Jonny Murphy
Hooker Kevin O'Byrne
Hooker Duncan Casey
Hooker James Rael
Tighthead Martin Moore
Tighthead Tadhg Furlong
Tighthead Conor Carey
Tighthead Jake Caulfield
Tighthead Jamie Dever
Tighthead Peter Reilly
Lock Cathal O'Flaherty
Lock Tadhg Beirne
Lock Gavin Thornbury
Lock Alan O'Connor
Lock James Simpson
Lock Daniel Qualter
Lock Ultan Dilane
Lock Philip Donnellan
Lock Brian Hayes
Flanker/Lock Ben Marshall
Flanker Dan Leavy
Flanker Conor Gilsenan
Flanker Josh Van Der Flier
Flanker Jordi Murphy
Flanker Conor Joyce
Flanker Neil Faloon
Flanker Aaron Conneely
Flanker David Heffernan
Flanker Jonathan Gardiner
Flanker Shane Buckley
Flanker Ryan Murphy
Eight Jack Conan
Eight Sean O'Connell
Eight Jack O'Donoghue
Scrum Half Luke McGrath
Scrum Half Marcus Walsh
Scrum Half Kieran Marmion(may have signed a non academy contract recently)
Scrum Half Brian Haugh
Outhalf Cathal Marsh
Outhalf Noel Reid
Outhalf Stuart Olding
Outhalf Jack Carty
Outhalf Tadgh Leader
Outhalf Johnny Holland
Centre Cian Bohane
Centre Jordan Coughlan
Centre Colm O'Shea
Centre Chris Farrell
Centre Corey Hircock
Centre Harry McNulty
Centre/Fullback Robbie Henshaw(may have signed a non academy contract recently)
Wing Andrew Boyle
Wing Sam Coughlan Murray
Wing Conor Finn
Wing Steve Macauley
Wing Ronan O'Mahony
Wing/Fullback Darren Hudson
Wing/Fullback Darren Moroney
Fullback Mikey Sherlock*(not sure about his status)
Fullback Rory Scholes
Fullback Peter Nelson
Fullback Ricky Andrew
Fullback Shane Layden
Fullback Darragh Leader
Fullback Darren Sweetnam

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Looking ahead to the summer I think it's probably safe to say we wont have too large a Lions representation. 8 would be the highest we could possibly lose imo. There's a lot to be said for that however. Firstly, it's a good time for some guys like Marshall and Henderson to get game time under their belt. These are the kind of guys who are going to be the bedrock of the panel for the next few years, so we'd want to get them established in the squad asap. We need to find a new 13 too, so Darren Cave and Eoin Griffin should both probably tour. I wouldn't mind having a look at Luke Fitz there either.

I think Ireland will have very few Lions. Healy, O'Brien, Sexton and O'Driscoll will tour. Best, Kearney and Heaslip have a shot. Zebo, Murray and Bowe are outside bets. Of those, only Zebo and Murray should be considered for the North America tour. Ross should be excused from touring also.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I think Ireland will have very few Lions. Healy, O'Brien, Sexton and O'Driscoll will tour. Best, Kearney and Heaslip have a shot. Zebo, Murray and Bowe are outside bets. Of those, only Zebo and Murray should be considered for the North America tour. Ross should be excused from touring also.

Donnacha Ryan will probably to too to be fair. Either him or Paul O'Connell.

Can't say I'm too upset about a lower representation tbh. I love the Lions, but I think Ireland need to get a few games under their belt with the same XV, or something close at least. Kidney has screwed a lot of players out of Lions chances with all that's gone on, but it may be a good thing in the long run for the national team. I'd like to see this team start both games of the tour, or at least most of it:

15) Zebo
14) Gilroy
13) Cave?
12) Marshall
11) Ftizgerald
10) Madigan
9) Murray
8) Heaslip
7) O'Mahony
6) Henderson
5) Tuohy
4) McCarthy
3) Fitzpatrick/Archer/Hagan
2) Strauss
1) Kilcoyne

16) Court 17) Cronin 18) Archer/Fitzpatrick/Hagan 19)Toner 20)Ruddock 21) Marshall 22) Jackson 23) McFadden

The vast majority of that side will be knocking around the international setup for the next few years. Let's keep them playing together, and try to get their confidence up with a few wings. And the vast majority of the team is 25 or under

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Haven't read through the thread yet, I'll take a look later/tomorrow.

My thoughts on the game is:

1. I'll apologise to Conor Murray for my criticism last week, Paddy Jackson is not international class, too deep, not a good passer of the ball, awful at finding touch off penalties, his players don't trust him and won't allow him to take the ball at 1st receiver and suspect in defence.

2. Our pack is rubbish at the moment Healy and O'Brien the only standout players...

3. .... Much like our backline where O'Driscoll and Madigan were the only positives and that was only for 15 minutes

4. There was absolutely no kick chase without Zebo or McFadden

5. Marshall wasn't fit for that game and Kidney has to be questioned for not trusting Fitzgerald, Madigan or Cave

6. Best, Kearney, Heaslip and Ryan will all want to play well with their club to get into Lions contention.

7. The team still revolves around Leinster players, the Ulster and Munster players need to stand up.

 

[big ginger 8]

Am I the only one who though Heaslip was really good the best Irish player of the first half at least IMO.

 

[munstermuffin]

Won't argue with that BG8 although they were all poor.
As for Lions I agree with Feic and think D.Ryan has serious shout at test team. But I delighted there hardly any Irish for Lions as it physically killing us and while I agree about trying to maintain a stable 15 the likes of Ross etc need break. Also while he is young O'Mahony will have played too much and I think some guys just need to be sent to recharge batteries. This tour should be for likes of Sherry Henderson Kilcoyne Archer/Fitzpatrick to get quality game time in front 5 (Henderson at 6). I'd also like to give Madigan a lot of time and try options at 12 and 13. Simply because at 13 we need to know our options and maybe Luke Fitz at 12 or McFadden because Marshall is fine player but very prone to injury and can't be relied on to be fit