Italy v England

[iWin]

Ok, lets look at the infinite wisdom of Martin Johnson now:

15 Delon Armitage Out of form since injury, dropped everything against Wales. Foden's turn
14 Mark Cueto Hasn't done anything wrong, but Italy is a game to experiment with Ashton etc
13 Matthew Tait good
12 Riki Flutey at least it's not Hape
11 Ugo Monye fine
10 Jonny Wilkinson Kicked badly. Doesn't pass. Put Flood in.
9 Danny Care good

1 Tim Payne I am a fullback and I can see what this guy is doing wrong. Mullan please
2 Dylan Hartley Good
3 Dan Cole Good
4 Simon Shaw Whatever. I'd prefer to have someone younger in but...
5 Steve Borthwick © Lawes should be in instead, only good in lineout
6 James Haskell Good
7 Lewis Moody Fine
8 Nick Easter Good

16 Steve Thompson I would even have Mears ahead of him
17 David Wilson Fine
18 Matthew Mullan Should be starting
19 Lewis Deacon Can't do anything as far as I'm aware
20 Steffon Armatige Fine
21 Paul Hodgson Fine
22 Toby Flood Also should be starting

In addition to all of these personal things for each player, he's chosen 3 front rows and no outside back on the bench. This means that for a game we should be getting 30+ points in, we are going to have none of our many inexperienced outside backs getting game time. We have Ashton, Foden, Strettle, Goode, Cato, Banahan, Ojo, even Varndell waiting to get some kind of game time at top level, but because Johnson doesn't have the balls to drop Payne, we are stuck with this. Also a problem, the second row shows equal lack of ambition, while we have Lawes, Kennedy and Gaskell waiting to take over from Deacon and Borthwick in an easy game, but apparently we don't want to do well next year...
Also, the lack of outside back cover, even ignoring the unambitious nature of the move, is stupid. What are we going to do when Armitage, Monye, Cueto or Tait get injured? Armitage has just come back from an injury and is known to milk big hits so he might have to come off, and Tait is a fairly light centre who might be at risk. If Italy have any sense (a lot to ask for I know) they would put high ball after high ball up on Armitage with someone huge chasing, and wait to see how Flood lasts at fullback, or Hodgson on the wing.

Why is this moron still in charge of our national team?

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Feb 12 2010, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Someone should slap Johnson.
What's he got against Saints players?[/b]

Watford Gap

 

[shtove]

Johnson reckons Italy could cause lots of problems up front, so that's why he's gone top heavy on muscle and experience? Critics on this thread think the result is in the bag. Nuh-uuh.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 12 2010, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Feb 12 2010, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone should slap Johnson.
What's he got against Saints players?[/b]

Watford Gap
[/b][/quote]

Yes because the Elite squad is currently flooded by a veritable tsunami of Saracens players

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Feb 12 2010, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Johnson reckons Italy could cause lots of problems up front, so that's why he's gone top heavy on muscle and experience? Critics on this thread think the result is in the bag. Nuh-uuh.[/b]

If Ireland can beat them by more then 5 points, anyone can...

 

[cyRil]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 12 2010, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Feb 12 2010, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Johnson reckons Italy could cause lots of problems up front, so that's why he's gone top heavy on muscle and experience? Critics on this thread think the result is in the bag. Nuh-uuh.[/b]

If Ireland can beat them by more then 5 points, anyone can...
[/b][/quote]
Gaw, you're bored tonight aren't you?

 

[Bullitt]

Yep. Xbox is broke, nothing on telly & the mrs isn't here.

 

[cyRil]

Mrs Who?

iPlayer QI, then Jonathan Ross is on.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 13 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Feb 12 2010, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Johnson reckons Italy could cause lots of problems up front, so that's why he's gone top heavy on muscle and experience? Critics on this thread think the result is in the bag. Nuh-uuh.[/b]

If Ireland can beat them by more then 5 points, anyone can...
[/b][/quote]
... get done by them In Rome.

Kidney did the experimentation thing last season ... against Scotland. Against Italy this season and last he sent out seasoned troops (apart from McLaughlin, who played at home).

England have much less room for experimentation. Johnson would be an idiot to try out his fancy dans away from home. His team showed its hard core in scoring 17 points against 14 man Wales. Excellent, but they're still feeling their way and have to be cautious.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 12 2010, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

England Replacements named: 16-Steve Thompson, 17-David Wilson, 18-Matthew Mullan, 19-Louis Deacon, 20-Steffon Armitage, 21-Paul Hodgson, 22-Toby Flood.

FOR f***ING HELL'S SAKE.

5 forwards? 5? Including Deacon? WHYWHYWHYWHY

Of all games, Italy is the best for gaining experience. So...

1. Deacon has been proven to be **** and innefective. Courtney Lawes is a guy everyone knows has the talent and hunger to make it. ???
2. In Chris Ashton and Ben Foden, we have 2 exciting back 3 players who are in great form in the GP. So where is the sense in picking neither on the bench, for the sake of an extra forward? Grrr.

This, more than anything, highlights the media-forced lack of balls that has stifled England since Woodward left.

Johnson is well aware that Payne is crap, but because there are no looseheads in the country who've been capped, he feels like he cannot drop him. But he also wants to find a replacement, and Mullan is the one with his hand up. So he's put Mullan on the bench. Fair enough. But because Mullan is so inexperienced, and cannot play tighthead, Johnson's stuck Wilson in there 'just in case'.

Which is a pussy decision. Next, there's Deacon being preferred to Lawes, because Deacon has more experience. Although with Shaw and Borthwick there, against ITALY, I don't really see where experience and stability off the bench is ever going to be needed.

Picking Wilson on the bench has meant he's not going to be able to experiment with Ashton or Foden in the backline. Which is what the Italy game would be perfect for. Because what's going to happen if, say, Armitage is forced out of the Ireland game? Johnson will see Ben Foden as next in queue, and he'll see 'risk' all over it. So he'll pussy out and pick Cueto at 15.

England have just as much depth as France, and just as much talent. England's approach to selection in recent years has been bone-headedly conservative. France's has been the opposite. Now I'm not advocating tinkering to the Lievremont extreme, but the point needs to be made - France are relatively settled now and beat the ABs away and Springboks, and they are favourites for this 6N. England can't even beat Australia and are predicted a mid-table 6N finish.[/b]

Johnson is focused on winning the 6Ns, and that's a safe team that will win them the game (hopefully). If England f*** up this championship it's goodbye Martin, but if they win it then he can start getting imaginative in the summer tours (which is what they're for). Its gonna be a rainy day which couldnt be more inappropriate to shove in a fullback (Foden) who has a bad reputation under the high ball.

This may be the England team for this 6N, but in the summer i would like/expect/hope to see (with everyone fit):

1. Mullan
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Borthwick
6. Croft
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Care/Youngs
10. Flood/Wilkinson
11. Monye
12. Hape
13. Tait
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Sunday is definately not the game to start throwing away caps -

Mullan - No European experience, first/second time with the squad. Though agreed this is the least convincing argument. I would have put him in definately

Lawes - against (arguably) the toughest pack in the competition, not convincing against Munster. If Johnno (one of the best locks to play the game) doesn't think he's ready then i'll go with that.

Foden - Like i said, if he drops a few his confidence will be shot, not a day to run the ball either if forecasts are correct.

Ashton - Would've put him in too.

Ashton -

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Feb 13 2010, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Johnson is focused on winning the 6Ns, and that's a safe team that will win them the game (hopefully). If England f*** up this championship it's goodbye Martin, but if they win it then he can start getting imaginative in the summer tours (which is what they're for). Its gonna be a rainy day which couldnt be more inappropriate to shove in a fullback (Foden) who has a bad reputation under the high ball.

This may be the England team for this 6N, but in the summer i would like/expect/hope to see (with everyone fit):

1. Mullan
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Borthwick
6. Croft
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Care/Youngs
10. Flood/Wilkinson
11. Monye
12. Hape
13. Tait
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Sunday is definately not the game to start throwing away caps -

Mullan - No European experience, first/second time with the squad. Though agreed this is the least convincing argument. I would have put him in definately

Lawes - against (arguably) the toughest pack in the competition, not convincing against Munster. If Johnno (one of the best locks to play the game) doesn't think he's ready then i'll go with that.

Foden - Like i said, if he drops a few his confidence will be shot, not a day to run the ball either if forecasts are correct.

Ashton - Would've put him in too.

Ashton -[/b]

+1

Johnson is focused on having a chance against Ireland and France.

Not sure what you're saying about Ashton, but his time is soon. And Youngs as well, even though Care had a good match against Wales. Alot to look forward to from England.

 

[gingergenius]

You're saying you'd rather experiment against the Tri Nations on Summer Tours than against Italy? ...

Anyway, my gripe is not the starting lineup. I've harped on for a long time about how we need consistency here to allow players to gel properly, allow the team to get into winning ways, and create self-confidence.

My problem is with the bench.

I don't care what anyone says, England should expect to have Italy well beaten by the hour mark. We're weak in the scrum, but the Italians got pushed around last week by Ireland, of all people. We're strong in the lineout - Italy are weak. We've got a decent backrow - theirs is missing its best player. We have a goalkicker, they don't. We have pace in the backs, they don't.

So the bench should contain players who could come in when the game is won, and strut their stuff, when there's no pressure. This would be a great opprtunity for Mullan, Lawes and Foden - even Flood as a 10. Because the best teams always have great backup when they're missing parts, and it would be nice to have this calibre of player waiting in the wings for injuries/ loss of form from the starting XV.

If you wait till the summer, you'll find that half the starting XV are having shoulder operations or with their heavily pregnant wives. So you'll throw in 5 or 6 new faces, who've had no time to gel, to face the world's best teams. Result: we get battered, the players' confidence and reputations are damaged.

And if Johnson is being cautious against Italy, do you really think Wilson and Deacon are the players to bring in and change a game? And he can't be thinking about injury cover since there's 4 backline positions uncovered with this bench.

 

[lucky_number_7]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 13 2010, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

. We're weak in the scrum, but the Italians got pushed around last week by Ireland, of all people. .[/b]

ireland seem to take a bit of a beating from you guys?

are you sick of getting the **** kicked out of you everytime you step onto croke park without guns ?

sure the irish pack is not exactly the strongest in the world but they will still tear all of them in 6 nations to shreds with the exception of france

 

[Olyy]

I agree with GG,
it's the bench that i have the main problem with, putting in experienced players (deacon) when you've already got two very exp. on the pitch. Also, replacing either with Deacon would be a massive step down (even with Borthwick)

It's not like i'm saying drop everyone, i'm saying give inexperienced players a chance.
Lawes in for Deacon on the bench is hardly dramatic, it's swapping a poor player for a good one.
Mullan starting is hardly dramatic either: Poor scrummager out, good scrummager in
Would like Foden to be on the bench, because as said above, without Foden getting game time, if Armitage get's munched Johnson won't start Foden against any of the other nations, he'll just shoehorn a winger in there instead. We need the game time for the newer players just so we have viable backup options


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

ireland seem to take a bit of a beating from you guys?

are you sick of getting the **** kicked out of you everytime you step onto croke park without guns ?[/b]

Ireland 14 - 13 England
Hardly a ****-kicking really. Especially as that was against the grandslam winning team.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucky_number_7 @ Feb 13 2010, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 13 2010, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

. We're weak in the scrum, but the Italians got pushed around last week by Ireland, of all people. .[/b]

ireland seem to take a bit of a beating from you guys?

are you sick of getting the **** kicked out of you everytime you step onto croke park without guns ?

sure the irish pack is not exactly the strongest in the world but they will still tear all of them in 6 nations to shreds with the exception of france
[/b][/quote]

go away.

 

[lucky_number_7]

enjoy

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucky_number_7 @ Feb 13 2010, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

enjoy[/b]

Seriously?

The English give Ireland yet another bollocking on their own patch

England vs Ireland head to head:

Win/Loss -70-44.
5/6 Nations Grand Slams - 12-2
World Cup record: England 6 tournaments, 2 QF, 1 SF, 2 RU, 1 Winner. Ireland 6 Tournaments, 4 QF.

Now you're probably going to say 'blah blah population blah blah'. Please don't, there's more people in the Republic alone than in the whole of New Zealand.

Go away.

 

[lucky_number_7]

Well that win ratio is honestly not surprising as rugby is irelands 4th most popular sport with a population of about 4 million and about 6 million when drawing players from the north . how many people live in or arouund london can i ask?

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 13 2010, 01:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Now you're probably going to say 'blah blah population blah blah'. Please don't, there's more people in the Republic alone than in the whole of New Zealand.

Go away.[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucky_number_7 @ Feb 13 2010, 01:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well that win ratio is honestly not surprising as rugby is irelands 4th most popular sport with a population of about 4 million and about 6 million when drawing players from the north . how many people live in or arouund london can i ask?[/b]

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucky_number_7 @ Feb 13 2010, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well that win ratio is honestly not surprising as rugby is irelands 4th most popular sport with a population of about 4 million and about 6 million when drawing players from the north . how many people live in or arouund london can i ask?[/b]

I'm a native of London (started off with Saracens) but don't pay much attention to it now because it's a daft place to live with all those idiot bankers and secretaries. But I can officially confirm - given their player base, the English are amazingly **** at rugby.