Italy undermining the 6 Nations

[Scotty]

Return it back to the 5 Nations.

Give the extra week for the 5 nations to play the Rugby Europe teams.

Just seen this old thread and like idea of having the 5 nations and a tier 2 5 nations, winner of tier 2 5N plays winner of the tier 1 5N as a warm up game (2nd plays 2nd and so on) for the following season 5N, this way it takes away a team getting destroyed each year as part of the tournament but rather a warm up.

I 100% agree with religation, im just offering up a different idea because any team will be the same ad itally in the 6N they just dont have the funding to compete

 

[Amiga500]

It'll be interesting to see how Italy go with the two Pro14 teams lightyears ahead of where they were in previous seasons.

[Not so much in just results, but in their in-game competitiveness and quality of performance. They look to have coherent plans, good structures, exhibit significantly improved skills and much better fitness]

 

[The5thOfficial]

I think after the Italy England game, undermining is not the case TBH. Italy were pretty competitive.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think after the Italy England game, undermining is not the case TBH. Italy were pretty competitive.

And yet still shipped 7 tries conceding a bonus point. There is a difference between being competitive and competitive for Italy. No other side would ship as many points as Italy do and be called competitive.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Italy consistently fall apart after 60 minutes it seems. They are certainly improving though, I have been very frustrated with their contribution (or lack of!!) over the last few years but the improvement of their pro 14 sides is giving me hope and I feel the national side will (finally) take steps forward

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Italy consistently fall apart after 60 minutes it seems. They are certainly improving though, I have been very frustrated with their contribution (or lack of!!) over the last few years but the improvement of their pro 14 sides is giving me hope and I feel the national side will (finally) take steps forward

Italy points difference by year:
2000: -122
2001: -101
2002: -113
2003: -85
2004: -110
2005: -124
2006: - 53
2007: -53
2008: -57
2009: -121
2010: -68
2011: -68
2012: -68
2013: -36
2014: -109
2015: -120
2016: -145
2017: -151

I think looking at that it would be accurate to say Italy WERE improving, from about 2006 - 2013 apart from a blip in 2009 they were competing more however the trend is very clear more recently, Italy are getting worse as their golden generation players have been retiring. Parisse is next and the England game would indicate that the trend is not going to reverse. If the rest of the games go anything like the first, Italy will again be ending up with a difference between -100 and -150. I think Italy had their chance and are now regressing.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

I'll tell you, I'm a big fan of Georgia and I desperately want to see them in the six nations. This time last year I was frustrated with Italy as did nothing whatsoever but my mind has changed. I know you quoted stats on their point difference here which is a sight for sore eyes but O'Shea is taking them in the right direction trust me. There's a stat like they have the more players registered at grassroots level than Wales which shows the potential for them for the future (not 100% on this). I know it's an old cliche but patience is required with them; mine is very thin I must admit. Having said all this though, promotion and relegation is needed to lift the game of Italy, Georgia and Romania.
Btw, Romania could potentially go above Italy in the world rankings if all the results go their way these next 8 weeks or so.

 

[Reiser99]

Simple fact is one game does not settle a debate. That could have been Italy at their absolute best or it could be how they consistently play from now on. Part of the issue is Scotland's improvement., because Italy previously could come 5th, but that is extremely unlikely now. At the moment we need to see if O'Shea has a long term impact or not.

 

[truthteller]

They seem to have stagnated, though rugby has opened up in the past few years and weve seen more tries. so they need to adapt. Georgia meanwhile are probably a better side atm and must feel very aggrieved not to get more test matches with europena teams, they gave wales a hard time thats for sure....The italian teams in the pro 14 need to stay there and improve though and maybe the pro 14 needs to get a georgian team in there? There is a 6 nations unofficial second tier, maybe that needs to be more official. why not every few years the top of 6 nations 2 plays the bottom of 6 nations 1 in a 2 leg play off? it cant be every year as matches and hospitality and tv rights are sold in several year blocks. we need georgia russia portugal to get a chance to grow.

 

[FrenchFan]

I think the argument in favour of relegation-promotion is winning. I'll add one.

No one mentions the fact that the test game is sliding. The number of world class teams has been shrinking not expanding. SA Aus are no longer the forces they were. They've been sliding. And the Pacific island unions are broke.

The 6 Nations is a great competition but its closed shop mentality promotes the current stagnation.

 

[truthteller]

I think the argument in favour of relegation-promotion is winning. I'll add one.

No one mentions the fact that the test game is sliding. The number of world class teams has been shrinking not expanding. SA Aus are no longer the forces they were. They've been sliding. And the Pacific island unions are broke.

The 6 Nations is a great competition but its closed shop mentality promotes the current stagnation.

The 4 nations have treated pacific islands disgracefully. surely to heck the PI's should have a combined team in the 4 nations? IF financially viable also with a view to a super 14 team pacific islands team too , they should also seek to get a side from buenos eires in one day

In europe

2 divisions. At the end of every say 3 to 5 years the bottom of 6 nations div 1 plays top of 6 nations div 2, 2 leg game. BUT the infrastructure must first grow in thoese nations. they need more sides in europe and maybe in the pro 14 or french league one day? The 6 nations is massive money spinner 70,000 guarnateed sell outs, tens of millions on bbc worldwide etc


It could be a masive blow to say italy if they were relegated. But it would give georgia or romania or russia etc a chance. In time those 6 nations tier 2 games will get more coverage and crowds and the battle to get to the top and promotion will in turn generate huge interest crowds and raise standards too.

 

[bushytop]

I remember reading someone's comment a few years back about an 8 nations when there are two further nations when they have the game to compete. Due to the fixtures, it could be split into 2 conferences of four teams, seeded from the previous years results... so for arguments sake let's say conference 1 would be England(1), France(3), Wales(5) & Romania(7)... conference 2: Ireland(2), Scotland(4), Italy(6) & Georgia(8). Each team would play each other home and away and then each team would play their conference equivalent in the finals 1st vs 1st (Grand Champs), 2nd vs 2nd (plate), 3rd vs 3rd (bowl), 4th vs 4th (spoon). The finals could all be held together over a weekend in a different host capital each year.

I do like this idea a lot but the 6 nations is so steeped in tradition that a total reformation to that degree is unlikely. A play-off, or even a play-off series between spoons and 6Nb winners would seem the easier solution.

 

[Car]

ESPN Scrum had this article about Italy which is worth reading:
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_...s-relevancy-conor-oshea?ex_cid=UKSocial_GC_FB

 

[Derpus]

I think the argument in favour of relegation-promotion is winning. I'll add one.

No one mentions the fact that the test game is sliding. The number of world class teams has been shrinking not expanding. SA Aus are no longer the forces they were. They've been sliding. And the Pacific island unions are broke.

The 6 Nations is a great competition but its closed shop mentality promotes the current stagnation.

It's all about money. The international game is sliding because French and English club teams throw money at players from other nations. So much so they leave even if it rules them ineligible for their national team.

Again, PI nations won't ever be seriously considered for the rugby championship unless they become financially viable. As it stands, Rugby in Australia and Argentina is looking unsustainable at a professional level entirely, let alone trying to support the PIs. Don't see it happening in the next 10 years.

I doubt 6 nations will incorporate a promotion/relegation system. Someone stands to lose a lot of money as a result of relegation. Sure, it'll probably be Italy. In the event that it's not, one of the bigger nations stands to take a serious blow to their income. Won't happen in the 10 years either.

 

[FrenchFan]

It's all about money. The international game is sliding because French and English club teams throw money at players from other nations. So much so they leave even if it rules them ineligible for their national team.

Again, PI nations won't ever be seriously considered for the rugby championship unless they become financially viable. As it stands, Rugby in Australia and Argentina is looking unsustainable at a professional level entirely, let alone trying to support the PIs. Don't see it happening in the next 10 years.

I doubt 6 nations will incorporate a promotion/relegation system. Someone stands to lose a lot of money as a result of relegation. Sure, it'll probably be Italy. In the event that it's not, one of the bigger nations stands to take a serious blow to their income. Won't happen in the 10 years either.

I don't see club rugby blocking the growth of nations like Georgia and Romania. WR's apathy and lack of vision are. What have the clubs got to do with opening up the 6N and introducing promotion-relegation. Nothing.

 

[Derpus]

I don't see club rugby blocking the growth of nations like Georgia and Romania. WR's apathy and lack of vision are. What have the clubs got to do with opening up the 6N and introducing promotion-relegation. Nothing.

The wider point wasn't mean to be related to Georgia and Romania specifically, more so my last.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The points difference stats are excellent and damning, even when taking into account that the 6N do seem to generally be becoming higher scoring in general (which may exaggerate differences). And I can never argue for a closed shop.

But Italy have big crowds, are slowly transitioning to more attractive rugby and have a lot of decent younger players coming through. I am optimistic they will overtake Georgia, Fiji and Japan in the next couple of years.

But if I'm wrong and if Zebre and Treviso regress back to hapless bottom feeders in the Pro14, then I think there has to be some sort of change. I think they should be given a couple more years, but this really must be last chance saloon.

 

[bushytop]

But Italy have big crowds, are slowly transitioning to more attractive rugby and have a lot of decent younger players coming through. I am optimistic they will overtake Georgia, Fiji and Japan in the next couple of years.

Yeah you would have to think that Italy have better long term foundations than all of them... I do feel the national hunger for rugby in Georgia to mitigate some of that though.

Really hoping that Italy will look a far better outfit by the time COS departs.

 

[Brigantine]

I am optimistic [Italy] will overtake Georgia, Fiji and Japan in the next couple of years.

Half way through this Super Rugby season, I think you'll take Japan off that list and add Argentina instead.

We'll see how France vs Italy in 2 weeks compares with France vs Japan last November.

 

[FrenchFan]

We'll see how France vs Italy in 2 weeks compares with France vs Japan last November.

same mediocrity