Italy undermining the 6 Nations

[Groundhog]

I mean where is the negative in a playoff between last place in the 6 Nations, and the Top team in Six Nations B. If Georgia are good enough at some stage, they will win that game. If they're not, they're not. This can literally only improve the 6 Nations by having the best 6 teams in Europe competing. It also gives the developing nations something tangible to improve towards. It's an incentive for Italy to get their act together, and an incentive for teams like Georgia to improve themselves towards a 6 Nations standard rather than being able to (generally) coast to Championship wins, with no real reason to improve.
In my eyes there's two choices. We continue to have the same 6 teams exclusively compete in an elite competition flipping the two fingers to everyone else, or we open up the competition to at the very least give other teams the possibility of competing if they prove in a very practical sense they're up to the standard. A team is unlikely to be able to beat Italy for a few years, so it's not like we're hanging the Italians out to dry.

 

[Osezno]

It's all down to economics, I'm afraid. The 6 Nations will only open up if one of the large and wealthy European nations is ready to step up.

I think Germany's win against Romania is just a freak result, they are improving but won't reach an acceptable standard soon. However, Spain's win against Russia is very significant. Spain has a lot of advantages: large country with a great tradition in team sports, can use numerous French players of Spanish heritage and the core area of French rugby is right across the border, which makes it very easy to integrate Spanish clubs into the their system. If Spain can make it to the next World Cup, I bet they will be invited to the Six Nations in record time.

I highly doubt it. And I'd love to see first Spanish women be invited. They deserve it way more than men.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I mean where is the negative in a playoff between last place in the 6 Nations, and the Top team in Six Nations B. If Georgia are good enough at some stage, they will win that game.

I don't think that solves the problem. The problem is that there is an abysmal difference between Italy/Romania/Georgia and the other 5. Sure, Italy will win a game every now and then, but will concede 40+ points every other game. They've won the wooden spoon 11 times since 2000. Eleven times!

I'm all in favour of giving smaller nations the chance to play against tougher opposition but that has to serve a purpose, in this case, improving. That is clearly not the case with Italy.
Sure, they will have a "historical" win every now and then, and that's great, but that is not the trend. The trend is clear and they are just as far from the other 5 nations as they were 15 years ago.

2000's Ireland vs Italy = 60 -13
2017's result = 63 - 10

It is clearly not working. Playing against a slightly tougher opponent helps you improve. Playing against an overwhelmingly superior opponent is counter productive. Additionally, it makes the games incredibly boring. I am not convinced it even helps from an economics point of view.

 

[Car]

And from an entertainment point of view, i enjoyed Romania vs Germany 10x more than Italy vs Ireland.

This and not only because I'm German. I found myself bored soon enough by many of our matches in the past because we had lost them so early on whereas many Italy matches in the past were good (at least until 60 minutes had been played) because Italy was still in it. But nowadays? It's changing. I used to have Sky Italy in the past and could watch the Italian Heineken Cup matches (plus some others per round). I soon stopped doing that once I realised they always were one-sided.

 

[Reiser99]

In response to those saying Italy are better than Georgia, that is probably true. However Georgia are currently above them in the rankings and they have only played each other once in 2003 (if the internet is correct). I would love to know the result of a game now. However I imagine Italy will do everything possible to never play Georgia and find out.

One issue for me is that teams develop with competition. Now this Six Nations has the potential to be incredible because so far apart from the Italian games, the other 3 played have a points difference of 13 in total. If Scotland keep up their level and France, then this can only push the top 5 on. This is what Italy lack, any real competition to push them on. When you're at the bottom and know you can't go lower, you lose that extra motivation. The risk of a play off with Georgia could give Italy that extra push to develop further. It's hard winning the wooden spoon regularly to motivate yourself to the level necessary and now with Scotland's improvement you feel they have little to aim for.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Can someone explain to me why the 6 nations should be "opened up"? They've created a cash cow that keeps the northern hemisphere game going. Now because of their success they're suddenly the bad guys for wanting to protect what they've created. This socialist idea that they owe other countries entry is nonsense.

I'm not against expanding it in future but not now. Italy are a better team than Georgia and it's been mentioned already that people were saying the same about Scotland not so long ago. Scotland have improved on the back of Glasgow's improvement. Italy are basing their team off Treviso and Zebra. They should concentrate on getting them competitive first.

There are clear long term benefits to making 6N membership based on merit. Even setting aside internationals, it would have a massive potential impact on the European club scene. It is pretty clear that there is more chance of Irish internationals playing for your club Munster in the years to come if the Pro12 was to incorporate Spanish and German sides (along with their TV money).

Whilst it is true that Scotland and France improving creates a bigger gap, I don't think that there is any doubt that Georgia, Romania, Germany and Spain are closing their respective gaps to Italy. Additionally, Spain and Romania can produce some gloriously entertaining rugby. Italy can't even muster flowing play against the US or Canada.

As for Italy being better than Georgia I think that is questionable. Georgia lost by about 30 points against a full strength Scotland in November. I shudder to think what the Scottish backs will do to Italy in the equivalent fixture. I would defend Italy and argue that they have only become an embarrassment t the tournament in the last two seasons.

 

[Reiser99]

This was an interesting article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38859441

Basically the six nations has the highest average number of fans per game out of any sport in the world. So the question the six nations organisers have to ask is does changing it affect this. I think if it were France or one of the home nations, then never. However Italy in terms of support are easily the weakest, especially when they don't actually have a home stadium, but use football stadiums, and if any other competing nation could demonstrate a high level of support at home, it might be tempting.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Georgia needs capital investment into the grass roots level.
More clubs and more awareness on the local media.

 

[tsof]

I agree with the point above that the national team's improvement should be based on the improvement of the provincial teams. Scotland building off Glasgow's improvement being the obvious example. Surely the best thing the Italian's could do is merge Treviso and Zebre into one team - the Italian version of the Jagures if you like - and get them being competitive in the Pro 12 first? They really don't have the player base to field two teams as it stands. Fix that first of all, surely?

 

[Goodey]

The thread ***le just seems odd. How can Italy 'undermine' the Six Nations when they are, and always have been, one of the Six Nations? The tournament is fairly new by sporting standards but it's been here for almost the whole pro era and longer than many fans have been alive.

Even if they never improve they're a part of what the tournament is to me. To me the Five Nations is a symbol of ameteur rugby, going back to it seems like a big step backwards for the tournament and European rugby in general.

 

[ALJ]

There are clear long term benefits to making 6N membership based on merit. Even setting aside internationals, it would have a massive potential impact on the European club scene. It is pretty clear that there is more chance of Irish internationals playing for your club Munster in the years to come if the Pro12 was to incorporate Spanish and German sides (along with their TV money).

I like the idea but think the problem with this approach is money, and not in the usual way.

If you want to compete in the Six Nations, a long term plan is needed (facilities, training, staff, etc, etc) and that plan must be funded.
If you don't know whether you will be in the 1st or 2nd tier from one season to the next, how are you supposed to manage this process without either always planning to be in the 2nd tier or getting dragged into a boom & bust type scenario.

I think this would result in whoever is the bottom team in the 6N actually falling further behind the other 5 teams, which obviously isn't the idea.


That aside, a weekend in Tbilisi or Rome to watch rugby - possibly not such a tough choice!

 

[Which Tyler]

I agree with the point above that the national team's improvement should be based on the improvement of the provincial teams. Scotland building off Glasgow's improvement being the obvious example. Surely the best thing the Italian's could do is merge Treviso and Zebre into one team - the Italian version of the Jagures if you like - and get them being competitive in the Pro 12 first? They really don't have the player base to field two teams as it stands. Fix that first of all, surely?

The best thing to do would be to stop hamstringing them by bribing the Pro 12 to let them play.
Stop that, and allow them to invest in their squads, and maybe even an academy or 2 - maybe using the Top 10 (is it still called that?) to help bring players through; certainly add to top talent to their professional teams.
Pretty sure that they'd find a use for that £1.5M per team if they were allowed to keep it.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Talk of relegation will come again after today. Italy have been absolutely horrific again. Is it time to introduce relegation then?

 

[ncurd]

The problem today has been finishing.... they've left something like 23 points hanging today.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Yep this problem has lingered for a long time now. Poor kicking (9 points missed) and a couple of simple finishes mucked up by the backs (12 points missed lets say). The backs for Italy in general are of a very very low standard and they are simply not good enough to compete.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Italy only had one humiliating result compared to two past year. Possibly due the BP system reducing the need to get huge score differentials. I was expecting even worse results this year to be honest and by forcing Italy to play more Tier 1 matches from 2020 there is scope for a lot more pressure on Italy in the years to come if Osheas plan doesn't produce reasons for optimism.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Italy only had one humiliating result compared to two past year. Possibly due the BP system reducing the need to get huge score differentials. I was expecting even worse results this year to be honest and by forcing Italy to play more Tier 1 matches from 2020 there is scope for a lot more pressure on Italy in the years to come if Osheas plan doesn't produce reasons for optimism.

Is being nilled not humiliating?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Is being nilled not humiliating?

Touché. But less than 30 points conceded probably makes it an appalling result rather than a humiliation in the Italian scale of defeats! After getting totally outplayed by Tonga at home I was fearing even worse.

 

[McTallshort]

Italy were appalling. They need a serious kick up the arse and the threat of relegation might provide it.

 

[BraddersTheDog]

The problem I have is that I never really look forward to watching the Italy games because they're so rarely any sort of spectacle. I certainly can't be the only one, and that in itself is a problem for the Six Nations.